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Hang gliding general :: RE: Micro Hang Gliding (microHG or MHG)

21 November, 2015 - 01:00
Author: joefaust
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:00 pm (GMT -8)

Micro hang gliding was mentioned in the following:
HG without paid instructors and without commercial HG schools
This topic is for exploring HG in USA without paid HG instructors and without commercial hang gliding schools.

Suppose today one looked out and saw that there was not one paid HG instructor and not one commercial HG school. What then could the HG scene go? Express scenarios. Ask questions about the scene. Propose something. Guess. Estimate futures. There might not be any need for paid instruction or commercial schooling to grow hang gliding in USA.

Below is a start by me. And below is post by another with a another perspective
There are differences. What say YOU?


I'll start.
1. I entered hang gliding without paying an instructor and without going to a commercial HG school. I had many avenues of instruction and many types of schooling that accompanied my drive to advance my hang gliding. Some of these avenues started with conversations, letters, and construction meetings; some were meeting on the field with flight experiments. I would extend my gifts and talents without charge; and I received gifts and talents from others who were growing their own hang gliding involvements.

2. The advent of the Internet multiplied the opportunity to get in association with others of similar HG interests. Sharing tips, lessons, plans, observations, field operations ... all played to move HG forward in my life.

3. I see no barrier that would prevent a person interested in HG to fulfill their interest under the assumptions forming this topic thread. They may learn, model, test, experiment, grow in fitness, and grow in their hang gliding skills. They may talk with others and observe others in HG; they may share their time, gifts, and talents in association with others who are doing HG. There need be no rush; indeed, the methodical growth of the HG activity in one's life might be the strongest ticket to a robust recreational HG hobby or sport. What is the hurry? One may proceed at one's own pace, especially if not spurred by commercial interests and constraints.

4. A culture of reciprocal mentorship may produce wise HG pilots.

5. Vanillaization dependent on mindset that paid instruction and commercial schooling might be a source of age attrition in HG. Differently having to grow one's own hobby/sport by study, communications, sharing, fitness training, and craft involving may well generate a wide variety of niche HG activity that might in turn set the scene for many centers of excited involvement. Inbreeding into the needs of a commercial flow may die as competing commercial powers play. Rather, dependency on one's discerned interests and talents may give a profound vitality that attracts others to such vitality and variety.

4. Recreational hang gliding occurs even without such being named such. Recreation groups may form to pool talents, ideas, materials, plans, cares, and times of open meeting. Pools of documents, plans, tips, and materials may be formed by one or two or more individual pilots. And then those pools may be shared in different ways from one pool center to another. Group observations and critiques may be formed.

5. Honoring niche HG activity could become the norm.

6. Gliders may be shared through various formula. Shared maintenance. Shared repair. Robust logging. Taking turns. Stay individual self-responsible recreationists.

7. Have national pool of ever-growing tests to ride parallel with anyone's growth. But have exactly one rating: HGP.

8. Have a culture of safety. Study all incidents in common. Have open forums where things are discussed in detail.

9. Aim for millions of launch and landing sites as opposed to a few controlled commercial or charged sites. Aim for equity for HG in the recreation and parks world. Build well respectful relations with land mangers relative to the 51-state immunity for land managers when charge and invitation are absent (allowing upon asking). Play at parks as a citizen. Learn from each other. Leave events or organized gatherings to those who choose to organize events and gatherings.

10. Grow pride in solid skills and knowledge. Bury the rating systems, badge systems, culture of gates. Let one take tests in knowledge and skill without having ratings. Encourage continual learning.

11. Have a culture where the person most important in one's HG is the HGP that one is, not someone else. This very well could be the foundation for super honoring others in hang gliding history; honor others by adopting the wisdom that they radiated. Find the gems of Otto Lilienthal. Find the gems of anyone who has published a HG gem; honor them, especially by incorporating the wisdom involved. Put aside any found unwise notes. Encourage by example a piloting participation that is not based on pride or peer pressure, but on good piloting.

12. We may not need any "careers" in the hang gliding world, only HGPs honoring their recreational interests with their best selves. A HGP subsisting on whether or not someone else has a business might be better off doing something other than HG.

13. Wing running, Safe-Splat, busable presto-up HG packs, and micro hang gliding may each bring HG to the consciousness of a huge portion of the population. Plans for DIY busable presto-up Safe-Splat HGs combined with the Internet and wise self-soar fun exampling could go far in forming a huge future for HG. Permitting coming eHG may close the deal. And all without paid instruction, without commercial schools, and without 3PL addiction. Respect the premises immunity and be a great neighbor to others as one patiently wisely builds one's hobby/sport recreational HG. Soak up the wisdom of all who are retiring.

~ Joe Faust

On balance is a view just published by Joe Greblo:
Joe Greblo wrote:
The Most Important Man in Hang Gliding Fri, Nov 20 2015, 1:53:06 pm in Oz Report

My thoughts on growing our sport take me in a different direction than asking how do we better promote our sport.

It could be argued that the most important man in the development of our sport is John Harris of Kitty Hawk Kites. Year after year he encourages and trains many young, goal oriented hang gliding instructors. He has single handedly produced more instructors in the last 40 years than the rest of the world combined. Many of the america's largest hg school owners began as instructors at Kitty Hawk Kites.

Even so, few of these young, new instructors choose to establish careers in hang gliding. Why? And if they don't, who will?

The primary reasons for a shrinking hang gliding population are a reduction of both instructor talent and entrepreneurial economic opportunity.

Today there is little economic entrepreneurial opportunity in the hang gliding industry. For any person to consider a career as a hang gliding instructor, he/she would have to see a reason to invest time and money here, rather than some other other potential career.

1. Over the years, more and more hang gliding schools and instructors have thrown in the towel and are not being replaced by new instructors. This means less and less effort, less and less capital expenditure, and less and less promotion is being directed towards getting students into our sport. We are past the "tipping point" on this downward spiral in new participation in hang gliding.

2. The average age of a hang gliding student is over 30. The average age of a hg pilot is well over 40. Most everyone in these age brackets that can afford the initial high costs of hang gliding, already has a job or career they are unwilling to give up for a risky, non-lucrative career in hang gliding. In addition, those in this age bracket are more likely to have already developed financial assets they are unwilling to risk with the potential accident liability in our sport.

3. High school and college aged men and women generally can't afford thousands of dollars needed to learn to hg and purchase their gear, so we have a very small pool of potential entrepreneur instructors.

4. Training sites near large population bases are few and far between, further reducing entrepreneurial opportunity.

5. Already trained hang glider pilots have little incentive to promote or support hang gliding schools as these pilots find the instructional process is no longer necessary, and online equipment suppliers lacking the overhead associated with a school, can offer products at lower prices.

The million dollar question…what needs to be done?

At least the following 2 problems must be solved if we are have any significant effect on the future growth of our sport.

1. Find a way to reduce the cost of hang gliding training for high school and college students as they are the only ones likely to invest in hang gliding as a business opportunity.

2. Create entrepreneurial opportunities for young, goal oriented pilots to become flight instructors and school owners.

Although difficult and daunting, solutions are possible; but only if we recognize and confront the above obstacles and stop trying to resuscitate a dying system that lacks a foundation of talent and economic opportunity.

While all the traditional, promotional efforts obviously have some merit, I believe new efforts need to focus on developing opportune business environments by subsidizing the cost of training of young pilots, and acquiring new training sites and flying sites. Those with experience and talents at fundraising and writing grant requests of industry and government are truly needed, as are those with interest and experience finding and opening new training sites. Schools and instructors should consider lowering their training rates for teens, serious about learning, as parents can't afford the high costs of instruction and equipment. This would also provide incentive for aerospace and other industries and governments to award grant moneys towards low cost training programs for the young.

A hang gliding school in southern California has experimented and had some success with 1/2 price lessons for teenagers that make strong commitments towards learning.

Let me close by saying that I believe there is no greater need in the future of our sport than this one as I'm one who's close to retiring and see no one coming to take over my role as a producer of new pilots.
~ Joe Greblo

Hang gliding general :: RE: How has USHPA been failing hang gliding?

21 November, 2015 - 00:48
Author: joefaust
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:48 pm (GMT -8)

[ ] If someone saved what I post on Sept. 20th in this topic that was admin erased, I'd appreciate a PMed copy. Thanks in advance. It is difficult to have a robust conversation in a topic when content is admin erased.

Hang gliding general :: RE: How to Build a Flip-Up Face Shield

21 November, 2015 - 00:30
Author: RobertKesselring
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:30 pm (GMT -8)

Great How-to!
There will always be another flying day...
unless you do something stupid.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Medical Quesionair

21 November, 2015 - 00:07
Author: SeeMarkFly
Subject: Re: Medical Quesionair
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 4:07 pm (GMT -8)

flyn'ride wrote: I am just curious about the amount of medical training the HG community has.
I took the first aid training to get the information and experience, BUT I "failed" the test on purpose because I learned that I could get sued if I had a license but refused to help in certain situations.
I now know what to do and I can choose when I want to do it without a lawyer involved.

DON"T give lawyers money, it only gets worse fron there.
Mark Webber
225 Falcon (I can land this one)
163 Super Sport (I can't land this one)

complacency about complacency is probably the enemy.

Growing the Sport of HG :: RE: Good PR Can't Hurt

20 November, 2015 - 23:30
Author: NMERider
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 3:30 pm (GMT -8)

Good work. Media relations are good to have.
Let's all motivate and educate ourselves to actively manage the various risks we are exposed to in our sport!

Growing the Sport of HG :: Good PR Can't Hurt

20 November, 2015 - 22:50
Author: ChattaroyMan
Subject: Good PR Can't Hurt
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:50 pm (GMT -8)

Only part that may not be factual is the mention of a hang fatality at Maryhill State Park. We're trying to figure out the facts. Right now the odds are it was a mini-wing para pilot who may not have launched from inside the park. Sad deal anyway but the hang/para confusion leads to all sorts of problems. One likely being why we're having to change the WAC causing our main Steptoe issue (Washington Administrative Code).

I'm beginning to write a fun story on 'To Hang Or To Para?' targeted to those who don't know one from the other. I'll submit it to local news outfits and see what happens.
U2 160 • Chattaroy, WA - USA

Hang gliding general :: Helmet Technology link

20 November, 2015 - 20:51
Author: Roadrunner
Subject: Helmet Technology link
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:51 pm (GMT -8)

Hi Guys, hey maybe, just maybe we might end up with better brain protection from development work being done through the N-F-L.

Guys, I'm just trying to be a positive force in this T-B-I thing we MUST get a handle on.

See-Ya Chris McKeon


Q&A, Learning to hang glide :: RE: Fine tuning my launch

20 November, 2015 - 20:19
Author: red
Subject: Fine tuning my launch
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:19 pm (GMT -8)


+1 on what Flybop said.

Often, when it is too strong in the mid-day, the conditions get more mellow as the sun gets lower in the sky. The smoother evening flights are great for learning, and there will probably be less traffic in your way. Still, you can always choose not to fly, anytime the conditions are not suitable for you. You are the Pilot In Command of your aircraft, and nobody else.

On my flying sites, newer pilots can fly with a good length (~5 yards or ~5 m) of plastic surveyors' orange tape tied to the end of the keel or kingpost. This tape is a request for extra airspace clearance by the newer pilots, to the more experienced pilots. Just avoid using any very strong tapes (like Christmas ribbons) which do not break easily with your hands.

Pssst! New pilot? Free advice, maybe worth the price,
H4, Moyes X2, Falcon Tandem, HES Tracer, Quantum 'chute

The camp fire :: RE: Best Beatles

20 November, 2015 - 20:00
Author: dayhead
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:00 pm (GMT -8)

All great songs, to be sure, but my inspiration for posting was "Drive My Car".

"I got no car and it's breaking my heart,
but I've found a driver and that's a start"

Maybe some of you more creative types will come up with some HG lyrics.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Medical Quesionair

20 November, 2015 - 19:22
Author: mbadley
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:22 am (GMT -8)

I can stand around and say 'wow.... that looks bad.' I'm pretty good with a Band-Aid, though.
There are 2 types of gliders - those that have been whacked.... and those that haven't been flown yet.

Hang gliding general :: RE: The Andy Jackson Curse

20 November, 2015 - 19:17
Author: NMERider
Subject: Re: The Andy Jackson Curse
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:17 am (GMT -8)

KiwiPaul wrote: In August I had the privilege of spending 4 days hang gliding at Andy Jackson Airpark on my way home to Australia from a conference in Texas. It was a fantastic 4 days.... Hi Paul,
I just ran across this old footage of us at Andy Jackson Airpark from 2011. I thought you might enjoy it.
Cheers, Jonathan


Let's all motivate and educate ourselves to actively manage the various risks we are exposed to in our sport!

Q&A, Learning to hang glide :: RE: Fine tuning my launch

20 November, 2015 - 18:25
Author: flybop
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:25 am (GMT -8)

I also flew in lighter conditions with some pg'ers as I worked my way into soarable winds. Every flight is a learning experience. Get as many launches as you can and use the info you received here.

I would suggest going to your site even if it is forecast to be too strong for you. Hang out on launch, talk and listen to the other pilots. It would also be good to set up on launch in stronger than you want to fly in conditions. You will learn ground handling in stronger winds. This will go a long way towards getting you ready for soaring winds.

You could even get a wireman or two and make your way to launch. That way you can feel your wing in stronger winds on launch. There are no rules saying that you have to launch. Then you can be the driver after watching your buddies launch. It would also be a good idea to set up in the LZ in some good winds and practice ground handling and do some practice launch runs on the flat. All of this will go a long way to your progression to soaring conditions.

That may not seem to be as much fun as flying, but believe me, you will learn quite a bit. I have learned a good deal by simply being on launch and watching and listening to the experienced guys.

Heck, there are plenty of times that I never take my wing off my Jeep because it is too strong for me. But, I hang around, help if I can and then watch my friends launch and see how and where they go looking for lift. Watch and video your friends.

Bottom line is that you have far more opportunities to learn (we all do) other than actually flying. Good luck and keep those vids coming.
What a beautiful day! Let's go jump off a mountain!!!

"He did not know he could not fly and so he did" Guy Clark,

"The Cape"

Hang gliding Videos :: RE: November colors at the Frafjord, Norway

20 November, 2015 - 17:57
Author: Heli1
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:57 am (GMT -8)


The only useful thermals I have encountered here was in the center of the valley, doubling the flight time.

Of course, any extension of the flight is great, but at some of these places I don't expect anything but a sledder. And that's just fine.

The main purpose of flying here is the awesome, spectacular scenery. It's worth the short flight, and the long hike back up again to retrive my car.
Great for body and soul.

If I want airtime, the fjords are not the answer. Then I have other options.
But I still find 5-10 minutes above a scenic fjord more rewarding than an hour above some of the other local sites.

Also prefer cold water before hungry mountain lions


Hang gliding general :: RE: Fix for Trailing Edge Flutter

20 November, 2015 - 17:52
Author: NMERider
Subject: Re: Fix for Trailing Edge Flutter
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:52 am (GMT -8)

airpig wrote: ...The carbon I'm using is about 1/3 of a millimetre thick, its an old LE insert from a topless glider that I flattened out and cut down to size. As for the whole directional thing I'm not sure. What I can tell you is that it is stiffer and slightly thicker than the carbon inserts I have on my litespeed trailing edge and I think it needs to be due to the greater distance between battens than on the litespeed. I also considered balsa and agree it would most likely work also. What surprised me was how quick this was to implement for such a good result. The great thing is that if someone gives this a try on another glider and they don't get the result they want, its easy to put a small piece of sail repair sticky back tape over the cut, and being on the underside it would be almost undetectable
Thanks for the data. I have tracked down some affordable sources of .3mm carbon sheet. A local pilot has had excellent results with balsa wood he found laying in his garage that he varnished to protect from moisture. I may try balsa sheet and cover it with heat shrink model airplane film. It's pretty fast to prepare and should last a long time. I also need to sew some pockets into my sail which has ~525 hours on it. I can do all this without removing the sail from the frame or having to open up the double surface for the speed battens that WW and Icaro2000 use. Thanks for the inspiration.

Attached are photos of the darts I sewed into my Freedom 170 which cured my flutter up to 35mph.
Let's all motivate and educate ourselves to actively manage the various risks we are exposed to in our sport!

Hang gliding general :: RE: Medical Quesionair

20 November, 2015 - 17:43
Author: DAVE858
Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:43 am (GMT -8)

I think the most important thing for folks to consider in the event of an accident are if the area is safe to enter, I once ran to help a friend & was nearly hit by a landing glider! Also consider wether or not the person involved needs a medical transport, for exaple, broken wrist can probably be dealt with by having someone drive the person to the hospital vs a femur/spine injury which would likely need a helicopter extration. Another important consideration is that anyone who is knocked unconcious but regains conciousness & is otherwise fine NEEDS TO GO TO THE HOSPITAL for further evaluation.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Fix for Trailing Edge Flutter

20 November, 2015 - 03:55
Author: dave hopkins
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:55 pm (GMT -8)

doubling two different weight or types of sail material will often cause one to become loose because the top material will get lots of UV and shrink more then the bottom.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Fix for Trailing Edge Flutter

20 November, 2015 - 03:47
Author: dayhead
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:47 pm (GMT -8)

And I'd like to add that my Harrier seems to keep up with those Freedoms just fine, although Kory's Freedom with VG may beat me on the top end.

Steve Pearson was on top of his game when he designed the Harrier.

But by his own admission, the Harrier is "challenging to land".

That's why I only land my Harrier at AJX on wheels......

You win some, you lose some....such is life.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Things that make you laugh your ass off

20 November, 2015 - 03:34
Author: Fred Wilson
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:34 pm (GMT -8)

Two crows are sitting on a fence, when a jet-fighter doing training maneuvers roars overhead.
1st crow says wistfully "Man, I sure wish I could fly that fast!"

2nd crow remarks "If you had two butts, and both of them were on fire, you could!"
Thermaling Tips Wiki + Cross Country Coaching Manuals + RASP Wiki


Hang gliding general :: RE: Fix for Trailing Edge Flutter

20 November, 2015 - 03:32
Author: dayhead
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:32 pm (GMT -8)

I remember that way back in the good old days, we'd simply fold the trailing edge hem over and using a desk stapler simply staple in some scallop.

It worked, although those staples would eventually rust a bit....

I'm not a sailmaker, and definitely not an engineer. But it seems to me that adding battens is not necessarily the best solution to this "problem".

I regularly fly a 35 year old Harrier, and it has no flutter, unless I stuff the bar. So how come my friends, flying new high-performance SS gliders, are getting trailing edge flutter? My Harrier cost me $150 and doesn't flutter, but my friend's $4000+ Freedom does flutter. The more things change, the less they remain the same.

Hang gliding general :: RE: The Andy Jackson Curse

20 November, 2015 - 03:29
Author: flybop
Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:29 pm (GMT -8)

It is not always about the flying or the specific site. Most of all it is about the people you meet...
What a beautiful day! Let's go jump off a mountain!!!

"He did not know he could not fly and so he did" Guy Clark,

"The Cape"