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Hang gliding general :: RE: Are you satisfied with flex wing handling qualities?

27 August, 2016 - 00:09
Author: NMERider
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:09 pm (GMT -8)

davisstraub wrote: http://ozreport.com/10.154#8

205 miles. The single surface world record.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Flying a Predator now

26 August, 2016 - 23:34
Author: _css_nate_
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:34 pm (GMT -8)

Quote: Sadly I don't think you will be able to get any more of them as the gentelman who made the sails is retiring I heard.

This is really a bummer. Talked with Cheney a few months ago and he said it wasn't worth the while to tool up and make another sail. I have both a Saturn 147 and a Predator 142. I also have a couple Wills Wings. Wills are certainly more honed\refined, and I usually fly Wills Wing. But the Altair designs are truly special and have a fantastic "personality" in the air. All anyone needs to do is fly an Altair a few times to understand why they are still in demand. There are plenty of people who insist a Predator has better performance than a U2 in many respects and obviously the Predator is known for its aerobatic prowess and very high acceleration. Despite its history of aerobatics, only one factory original Predator failed, a prototype, which happened in 1995, pilot recovered safely.

http://upgliders.com/predator/update.php

If Cheney\UP throw in the towel, i hope maybe NorthWing would be interested in picking up the type certificate for the Saturn and Predator (like they did for Vision Pulse). Who knows...in the meantime i'm taking good care of my quiver.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Are you satisfied with flex wing handling qualities?

26 August, 2016 - 22:55
Author: davisstraub
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:55 pm (GMT -8)

http://ozreport.com/10.154#8

205 miles. The single surface world record.
_________________
Davis Straub at the Oz Report

Hang gliding general :: RE: Flying a Predator now

26 August, 2016 - 19:00
Author: DBrose
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:00 am (GMT -8)

_css_nate_ wrote: The turbulators are not there just to look cool nor are they a gimmick. The wing can and will spin very easily without them. Please read up on this unique approach, from Dennis Pagan:

http://www.delta-club-82.com/bible/manuels/blue-sky-aircraft-predator-142_id876.pdf

The 158 is known to be a wing suited best for huge pilots. I know 158 squares doesn't sound like much, but the aspect ratio is tremendously high for a flex wing at 8.5 and this also affects the roll response.
Heiney said something about when the glider gets older he sometimes takes them out.
_________________
Flying is for the birds

Hang gliding general :: RE: Are you satisfied with flex wing handling qualities?

26 August, 2016 - 18:01
Author: Mellowmoods
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:01 am (GMT -8)

Willy Dydo here in Santa Barbara has set single surface records in the area on his Alpha and has done some pretty impressive XC on it as well! He runs Fly Away Hang Gliding school and makes us all jealous when he is out flying it. I wish I could attach pics without having to upload them to some 3rd party. Pretty epic.
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Vision MK4
Ultrasport 166
Lightspeed 5

HangGliding.Org Events :: RE: COLORADO FLY WEEK 2016 - New News!

26 August, 2016 - 17:59
Author: TomGalvin
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:59 am (GMT -8)

From the facebook posts I see, it looks like the party has already gotten started. One vet visit and I'm rolling out.
_________________
Hummingbird rancher

Hang gliding general :: RE: Are you satisfied with flex wing handling qualities?

26 August, 2016 - 15:14
Author: Mr Pou
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:14 am (GMT -8)

AIRTHUG wrote: [Who's got much time on the new (not that new at this point) Wills Wing Alphas?

I flew Alpha 210s on the small hill, but interestingly when they send you to the big hill they migrate people to the Falcons. And pretty much Falcons as trainers from the mountain. I have heard that they are phasing out the Falcons as they wear and are them replacing with Alphas.

I bought a Horizon II 180 based on instructor input, but after flying some Falcon 4s, I think I would have been happier on a Falcon 4 195. The setup/teardown time difference alone would have meant more flights in the beginning, and the Falcon 4 wheeled aerotow trainer LMFP has is a really nice flying glider. It's really sweet compared to the Horizon. And, the Horizon is definitely more difficult to tow for a new aerotow H2.

Live and learn.
_________________
Mr Pou
But what the hell do I know, I'm just another H2 talking out of his arsehole

Hang gliding Videos :: RE: FliteTest Wins Red Bull Flugtag - Boston

26 August, 2016 - 15:01
Author: blindrodie
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:01 am (GMT -8)

Seems Bobby Bailey would be a good candidate for building a Bi wing floater...


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Hang gliding general :: RE: Are you satisfied with flex wing handling qualities?

26 August, 2016 - 14:51
Author: AIRTHUG
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:51 am (GMT -8)

dayhead wrote:
There's always talk on the forums about how to grow the sport of Hg. I think a great way to accomplish that would be to improve the handling qualities and reduce the stall speed of the Hg.

I understand the desire for a flat glide at high speed. But the popularity of Pg tells me that other items of performance should get a higher priority than high speed glide.

Who's got much time on the new (not that new at this point) Wills Wing Alphas? I'm heavily convinced they are the true HIGHEST PERFORMANCE hang gliders available today! And yet, they're really only being bought by schools. Even brand new students think they want more glide, so they get a Falcon (and give up some handling and stall speed/characteristics). Some want more glide still, so they get a Freedom (giving up more of the same, and adding cost and weight!). Now there's an $8k+ single surface?

I have a paraglider, a Falcon (purchased before the Alphas were released, or I would have gotten that instead!), and the hottest T2C money can buy... guess which one I fly the least

If you're after handling and slow stall speed, or the ability to stay up and stay in lift without needing to maneuver with surgical precision... you owe it to yourself you get a hop on one of the Alphas!
_________________
Gone flying.

Hang gliding Videos :: RE: FliteTest Wins Red Bull Flugtag - Boston

26 August, 2016 - 13:49
Author: TjW
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:49 am (GMT -8)

Probably too much span for the RedBull event.
Still, a fairly clean biplane would not be a bad approach to it.
Small amount of structure for large amount of area.



I always thought the 1902 glider was the prettiest airplane the Wrights ever built. The Flyers had such low AR they didn't look as graceful.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Flying a Predator now

26 August, 2016 - 11:40
Author: Stoubie
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:40 am (GMT -8)

I fly a 158 Predator and it is a scream. I hook in around 250. I can't get enough of this glider it is amazing. Sadly I don't think you will be able to get any more of them as the gentelman who made the sails is retiring I heard.

Hang gliding Videos :: RE: FliteTest Wins Red Bull Flugtag - Boston

26 August, 2016 - 06:41
Author: Takeo77
Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:41 pm (GMT -8)

A modernized Wright 1902 glider would be really cool.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Flying a Predator now

26 August, 2016 - 06:35
Author: _css_nate_
Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:35 pm (GMT -8)

The turbulators are not there just to look cool nor are they a gimmick. The wing can and will spin very easily without them. Please read up on this unique approach, from Dennis Pagan:

http://www.delta-club-82.com/bible/manuels/blue-sky-aircraft-predator-142_id876.pdf

The 158 is known to be a wing suited best for huge pilots. I know 158 squares doesn't sound like much, but the aspect ratio is tremendously high for a flex wing at 8.5 and this also affects the roll response.

Hang gliding Videos :: RE: FliteTest Wins Red Bull Flugtag - Boston

26 August, 2016 - 06:00
Author: dayhead
Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:00 pm (GMT -8)

I've always appreciated the Wright's 1902 glider. It stands to reason that it would be a good design to modernize, as the canard's weight can evenly balance the weight of the vertical tail. The canard could have a simple "over-ride" feature that feathers it some for high wind ground handling, and is released for launch.

Just thinkin'.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Are you satisfied with flex wing handling qualities?

26 August, 2016 - 05:50
Author: dayhead
Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:50 pm (GMT -8)

Bruno wrote:

"As for the OP, I have flown the smallest two seat aircraft up to 150 seat airline jets, made thousands of skydives starting with PC and ending with ramair canopies. There is something about the simplicity of weight shift that is appealing to me. If you want better roll, yaw, pitch control, that would be a sailplane. you can buy a Schweitzer 1-26 for the cost of a T2. You don't need to reinvent the wheel."

You can rest easy, I'm not advocating a reinvention of the wheel. Razz

My original intention was to voice my opinion, and see the reaction to it.

I expected the usual "It's a poor mechanic who blames his tools" reply.

I'm not doing so hot when it comes to getting an idea across, or so it seems.

I didn't intend to use the lockout phenomena as the sole basis for my opinion.
I did mention "hillsides" as another scene-of-the-crash.

There's always talk on the forums about how to grow the sport of Hg. I think a great way to accomplish that would be to improve the handling qualities and reduce the stall speed of the Hg.

I understand the desire for a flat glide at high speed. But the popularity of Pg tells me that other items of performance should get a higher priority than high speed glide.

In my 40 years I've had the experience of crashing, and watching other pilots crashing, on the hillside launch and, much more frequently, in the LZ. In many and likely most of those crashes, slow response to roll control input was a factor.

"Pilot Error" will always be with us, in one form or another.
It's not a good excuse for not trying to improve the equipment.

"If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it". But, you see, to the inventor EVERYTHING is broken, there's nothing that can't be improved upon. Only the cost to benefit ratio should be the criteria for determining whether it needs fixin' or not.

In our case, we should be liberal in our assessment of the cost-to-benefit ratio. We're already behind, so we should get to work on improving the Hg experience.

I'm impressed with how far we've come in developing the simple "standard Rogallo" into what we fly today. Our gliders are beautiful, and fly very well.

I'm curious about the effect of wing loading on a pilot's flying experience. I mention it because I've always been on the light side, and here I am voicing my opinion of flex wing handling being inadequate. I just wonder if having the higher loading that many pilots enjoy will tend to have them feel that the handling is Ok as it is.

I only know one thing for sure: That I've had some rather nervous moments inspired by the slow response rate of high performance flex wings. On some days, the best air is out over the flats, but lotsa times it's on the mountain, and I've had to "get in close" if I wanted to stay up. I think that most of us here have experienced "sticky wing", a very nervous moment when you're scratching your way up the hill.

A lot is said about operating an aircraft in appropriate conditions. Expanding that "conditions envelope" would improve not only our flying experience, but safety also. It's hard to see how that could hurt us, even if you don't believe that the roll control is inadequate.

To my knowledge, there have been two inventions that were developed to make roll easier and faster: The tall keel pocket, and the floating cross-bar. It's been 35 or more years since we got those, so I think it's high time we got another one.

Something that weighs little and is cheap, relatively speaking, and is as simple as a keel pocket or floating X-bar. I admit to being optimistic, and I see something simple and very clever getting invented that will make high performance gliders more fun and less tiring to fly.

And maybe we'll see a new design, something that bridges the gap between the flexies and the rigids. I'm stickin' around, just to see what happens.
popcorn

I just got another glider added to the pile under the house. She's a Richard Boone design, a single surface called "Breeze". If anyone reading this knows anything about this design, I'd love to hear from you. She's a 165, I think.

Hang gliding Videos :: RE: FliteTest Wins Red Bull Flugtag - Boston

26 August, 2016 - 05:44
Author: NMERider
Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:44 pm (GMT -8)

Takeo77 wrote: My brother who is also a hang glider pilot had an instrumental part in designing in building the Chicken Whisperer's bird. "Bkaw! shhhhhh"
I used to watch this educational show after school to augment my studies...


Link

Hang gliding Videos :: RE: FliteTest Wins Red Bull Flugtag - Boston

26 August, 2016 - 04:57
Author: Takeo77
Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:57 pm (GMT -8)

My brother who is also a hang glider pilot had an instrumental part in designing in building the Chicken Whisperer's bird.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Flying a Predator now

26 August, 2016 - 04:08
Author: DBrose
Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:08 pm (GMT -8)

I think they just look cool. Heiney stole the idea from a commercial airliner.
_________________
Flying is for the birds

Hang gliding general :: RE: Flying a Predator now

26 August, 2016 - 03:54
Author: jheissjr
Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:54 pm (GMT -8)

How do the vortex generators work? Do they actually increase performance?

Hang gliding general :: RE: Flying a Predator now

26 August, 2016 - 01:44
Author: designbydave
Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:44 pm (GMT -8)

Nice looking machine, go get after it!
_________________
-Dave Aldrich