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Hang gliding Videos :: RE: Crash Landing (for educational purposes)

30 April, 2016 - 00:35
Author: Dave Jacob
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:35 pm (GMT -8)

Mavi Gogun wrote:

This is the classic "it didn't kill me those times I got away with it" fallacy. If you lack the control to keep the wing tip out of the dirt you certainly lack the control to be assured of anything "gentle".

I think it's not quite so haphazard as that. I received instruction on this technique in 83. Wasn't until the late 90's that I tried and only to avert a down wind in the bailout LZ at Hat. I was told pilots would do it intentionally in the sand at Marina although I've never seen it done there. I have seen a pilot deliberately drag his tips at funston (not in the process of landing) just to show it could be done but in fairness he is quite good and it was in the chips near launch. Would be curious if other pilots have tried it.

Mavi Gogun wrote: What do you mean by "slow"?
As I can assume from earlier writings I think I'm like you in that I like to come in hot. Slow for me is not having extra energy so pretty much trim or below. If you are hot or high, you should have better options than tip dragging or even turning cross. Hopefully you can make it all the way around. But if you misread the wind indicators, and don't pick up on your amazing glide slope, you may not realize you are down wind until you realize your airspeed has dropped but the ground is still rushing.

Agree with what you say that advice needs to be appropriate to the audience. My personal thought is a down wind landing in strong conditions is the worst option next to striking an obstacle, landing in a hazard, or hitting a spectator. Perhaps there is room for discussion on this. If I had to do it, I'd really want a flat field and big wheels.

Mavi Gogun wrote: Dave, I spent my early youth in Fremont, dreamt of flying from the cliff overlooking the pickle factory, the surrounding hills. You ever fly there?

I only learned about the Pickle Factory this year and from another Hang Glider pilot. Always thought they were older ruins. No, never flew there. The area is pretty built up now and fenced in. Must have been different when you knew it. Mission has been my only backyard flying site. But it can be a great place to fly.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Flymaster varios

29 April, 2016 - 23:03
Author: Eteamjack
Subject: Varios
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:03 pm (GMT -8)

I've flown both and found both to be pretty equal. I liked the nicads vs the lithium
though. If the Lithiums were self servicable it would be a bonus
_________________
H4 (1979) Lake Elsinore. Ca. U2 160 (Sweet)
"If Your One Who Doesn't Succeed At First Maybe Hanggliding's Not For You"

"Don't take life seriously it isn't permanent"

Hang gliding general :: RE: Canadian Hang Gliding Nationals - 2016

29 April, 2016 - 23:01
Author: rregier
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 3:01 pm (GMT -8)

Great News! The FAI has given the word. The Canadian Nationals has been sanctioned and will be scored as a category 2 competition for world points.

Tell your international Hangy BUds
The more the merrier!

Hang gliding general :: RE: Should wearing an athletic cup be mandatory equipment?

29 April, 2016 - 22:52
Author: magentabluesky
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:52 pm (GMT -8)

Play-Doh Fun Factory doubles as a nut cracker.

Incident Reports :: RE: Icaro MastR: Spiral dive w/o recovery - batten clips opened

29 April, 2016 - 22:50
Author: Georgelongshore
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:50 pm (GMT -8)

Yes ,Mavi. I did try it at high bank angles of 60-70 degrees. And entered at steep dive angles as well. 3/4 to full VG. Also full on spins and inverted wingover. Been doing this a long time, don't try this at home kiddies. Your results may vary.
The glider has no tendency to get "stuck" in any of these moves any more than my Litespeed did. Which is to say it comes out of them predictably with the control input. Now, having said all that, the control inputs have to actually be correctly done. A high speed blade with VG on is going to respond to control inputs that are crossed up about as well as a big tree responds to a squirrel jumping onto one of its branches. It might shake a little bit but it is going to stay firmly rooted. I do not have any information on which size the glider in question was, nor do I know the pilot personally. I watched the video. It was fair to say the inputs were not correct and not positive enough to effect the outcome. He spent more time fiddling with finding his chute and indecisive moments that could have prevented him from noticing that he was doing stuff wrong. The VG was never released and the lack of sail shift due to lack of positive weight shift and pitch change coordination allowed the wing to stabilize.
Saying anything with absolute certainty about why the pilot did things the way he did is only something that the pilot can do. I do not fly my MastR the way that guy did. I am sure there are other opinions about how to control a particular make and model of glider but I tend to take Manfreds word on how the MastR best should be flown:-) So far his advise has been spot on and I am absolutely loving the wing. My buddy SF just got one also and am awaiting his input on how he likes it.
_________________
Attitude is the dividing line between a life of adventure and an eternity of strife

Hang gliding Videos :: RE: Crash Landing (for educational purposes)

29 April, 2016 - 22:49
Author: Mavi Gogun
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:49 pm (GMT -8)

Dave Jacob wrote: The point I was making is to turn to get cross and if you gently scrape your tip, it still works out better. I've had one down winder in moderate wind and I will not be doing that again.

This is the classic "it didn't kill me those times I got away with it" fallacy. If you lack the control to keep the wing tip out of the dirt you certainly lack the control to be assured of anything "gentle".


Dave Jacob wrote: As for low and slow, I should have been more clear. I'm suggesting even when your air speed is down and you are close to the ground as will likely be the case when you wrestle with this decision, you can probably still pull a gentle 90 degree turn and land cross.

What do you mean by "slow"? Normally, it means "too slow for conditions" or "slower than would allow the glider to respond with authority"- in which case, that "probably" is in reality an "eventually" followed by an unpleasant verb. For sure, one should never give up on being the pilot- still, we're dealing with a pilot who didn't have that capacity. A skilled, experienced pilot would have had all sots of options- and turning low and slow would have been very low on that list.

Whether advice helps or hurts depends on who is receiving it- something I always have to remember when talking with low airtime pilots. Just last week I was half way through an explanation, redacted most of what I had said, redirected to a course more appropriate. All too often advanced pilots sound like gunslingers explaining to a kid who just got his first riffle the best quick draw for shooting an apple off his sisters head.

---

Dave, I spent my early youth in Fremont, dreamt of flying from the cliff overlooking the pickle factory, the surrounding hills. You ever fly there?
_________________
Christopher LeFay

Aeros Discus 14 C/B

Preserve Free Flight in the U.S.- contribute here: http://ushpa.aero/freeflightforever.asp

Hang gliding general :: RE: Making a hang glider out of animal skin, wood, and sinew

29 April, 2016 - 22:27
Author: krassihg
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:27 pm (GMT -8)

Back to the initial question, I am pretty sure it can be done. I have always been fascinated by the realization that this Rogallo idea is not necessarily dependent on the technological advances of materials, and if the ancient people had enough imagination, they could have built the Rogallo type glider. In later times Chinese had the silk. That fabric could have been impregnated with some oils to make it less air permeable , and the frame could be made of bamboo. The wires could be made of some natural material too. So, yes.

Incident Reports :: RE: Icaro MastR: Spiral dive w/o recovery - batten clips opened

29 April, 2016 - 22:14
Author: Mavi Gogun
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:14 pm (GMT -8)

Bertram wrote: The Ruhpolding pilot TRIED to reduce his bank angle when his glider had a bank angle of about 60 degrees. THEN - after he tried in vain - things turned nasty. He didn't START weight shifting at 90 degee bank angle.

Ya, sure- he also didn't move himself as far forward/pull the bar as far back to initiate the roll out as Manfred demonstrated. Omitting the difference in their form is inexplicable. Manfred also didn't start his dive as steeply and pushed the bar out more during the spiral- so also not a great comparison. Notice to that both Ruhpoling and the DHV test pilot are hanging considerably higher over the bar than Manfred. You may not think those are important considerations, but they have to be part of any credible analysis. Many aircrafts experience radical changes in flight characteristics abruptly at certain speed attitude combinations, requiring very specific technique to recover, if at all possible. To know what the case was here, the conditions needs be recreated with higher fidelity than has been demonstrated.
_________________
Christopher LeFay

Aeros Discus 14 C/B

Preserve Free Flight in the U.S.- contribute here: http://ushpa.aero/freeflightforever.asp

Hang gliding Videos :: RE: Crash Landing (for educational purposes)

29 April, 2016 - 22:05
Author: Dave Jacob
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:05 pm (GMT -8)

Mavi Gogun wrote: Dave Jacob wrote: And if you strike a wing tip, a ground loop into the wind would likely still be preferable to a down winder.

Ya... that's not the advice you wanna give most pilots, let alone one that just demonstrated the landing in the recording. Dragging a wingtip into a turn reversal is an expert move performed reliably by very, very few of any skill level; the most likely outcome is a lateral impact with the pilot swung around the arc- adding a bit more speed with the glider absorbing LESS energy than if the wings were level. I'll take downwind over a rolled glider 99% of the time, thank you very much.

To recap: low level turns that involve part of your glider touching the ground are f***ing dangerous. Don't do it. "Low and slow"? Don't do that either! (wind gradient, slipping into the dirt, etc, etc, RIP)


Well I'd agree with part of what you said. When you ground loop from a down wind heading back into the wind you end up running side ways in the direction of the high wing. I've done it twice and it's surprisingly smooth. The point I was making is to turn to get cross and if you gently scrape your tip, it still works out better. I've had one down winder in moderate wind and I will not be doing that again.
As for low and slow, I should have been more clear. I'm suggesting even when your air speed is down and you are close to the ground as will likely be the case when you wrestle with this decision, you can probably still pull a gentle 90 degree turn and land cross.

Hang gliding Videos :: RE: Crash Landing (for educational purposes)

29 April, 2016 - 21:28
Author: DBrose
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:28 pm (GMT -8)

Here's a crash landing to learn from. Keep your speed up.
https://vimeo.com/126617152 this one could be it's own thread.
_________________
Flying is for the birds

The camp fire :: RE: Things that make you laugh your ass off

29 April, 2016 - 21:10
Author: BBJCaptain
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:10 pm (GMT -8)


_________________
First Flight 1979 H4 , Cirrus 3, UP Mosquito, Delta Wing Streak, Moyes XS, Exxtacy 160, Rotor Vulto, MILLENNIUM #8
ATP,MEL,HELI, BBJ, 747SP, G-IV
http://www.youtube.com/user/BBJCaptain/videos

Life's goal is not to arrive safely at the grave in a well preserved body.
But rather to slide in sideways, totally worn out and broken, shouting
"Holy Crap, WHAT A RIDE !!"

Open carry IS our second amendment in action. Concealed carry is a regulated privilege.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/forum.php

The camp fire :: RE: Things that make you laugh your ass off

29 April, 2016 - 21:08
Author: BBJCaptain
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:08 pm (GMT -8)


_________________
First Flight 1979 H4 , Cirrus 3, UP Mosquito, Delta Wing Streak, Moyes XS, Exxtacy 160, Rotor Vulto, MILLENNIUM #8
ATP,MEL,HELI, BBJ, 747SP, G-IV
http://www.youtube.com/user/BBJCaptain/videos

Life's goal is not to arrive safely at the grave in a well preserved body.
But rather to slide in sideways, totally worn out and broken, shouting
"Holy Crap, WHAT A RIDE !!"

Open carry IS our second amendment in action. Concealed carry is a regulated privilege.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/forum.php

Incident Reports :: RE: Icaro MastR: Spiral dive w/o recovery - batten clips opened

29 April, 2016 - 21:05
Author: Bertram
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:05 pm (GMT -8)

Mavi Gogun wrote: Bertram wrote:
Two of my gliders roll out of a fast 60 degree turn merely by weight shifting to the side.

Going back to the Ruhpolding recording, he achieved as much as 90 degree bank- several orders of magnitude more extreme than your sample. The comparisons lack fidelity.

The Ruhpolding pilot TRIED to reduce his bank angle when his glider had a bank angle of about 60 degrees. THEN - after he tried in vain - things turned nasty. He didn't START weight shifting at 90 degee bank angle.

The camp fire :: RE: Things that make you laugh your ass off

29 April, 2016 - 21:02
Author: BBJCaptain
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:02 pm (GMT -8)


_________________
First Flight 1979 H4 , Cirrus 3, UP Mosquito, Delta Wing Streak, Moyes XS, Exxtacy 160, Rotor Vulto, MILLENNIUM #8
ATP,MEL,HELI, BBJ, 747SP, G-IV
http://www.youtube.com/user/BBJCaptain/videos

Life's goal is not to arrive safely at the grave in a well preserved body.
But rather to slide in sideways, totally worn out and broken, shouting
"Holy Crap, WHAT A RIDE !!"

Open carry IS our second amendment in action. Concealed carry is a regulated privilege.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/forum.php

Foot Launched Powered Hang Gliding :: RE: why are there no DIY powered hang gliders?

29 April, 2016 - 20:58
Author: miraclepieco
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:58 pm (GMT -8)

the4ork wrote: Im talking about adding a motor to existing gliders. Like taking a falcon 4 and adding an engine to it. Not manufacturing the whole glider from scratch

Here are two home-built DIY nanotrikes attached to unmodified hang gliders:

Incident Reports :: RE: Icaro MastR: Spiral dive w/o recovery - batten clips opened

29 April, 2016 - 20:43
Author: Mavi Gogun
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:43 pm (GMT -8)

Georgelongshore wrote: I fly the Large MastR. Mine is half Technora with all carbon battens. I have tried to get it to stay in a spiral dive and it recovers nicely without undue roll forces required.

Ever rap it up into an extended spiral sustaining 60-90 degree bank angle, 4 second turns? That's the comparison to make. What size are the possibly offending gliders? Some sizes have their own unique problems- which is why the Discus 12 is uncertified while the 13,14,15 received DHV approval.
_________________
Christopher LeFay

Aeros Discus 14 C/B

Preserve Free Flight in the U.S.- contribute here: http://ushpa.aero/freeflightforever.asp

Incident Reports :: RE: Icaro MastR: Spiral dive w/o recovery - batten clips opened

29 April, 2016 - 20:37
Author: Georgelongshore
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:37 pm (GMT -8)

I fly the Large MastR. Mine is half Technora with all carbon battens. I have tried to get it to stay in a spiral dive and it recovers nicely without undue roll forces required. I communicated with Icaro about this when it first came up as a potential issue with the MastR. I have no doubt that the spiral was due to incorrect control inputs by the pilot. Regardless of the batten tips.
When the zip tie fix for the batten tips was introduces I kind of got a chuckle. High tech meets Fred Flintstone. I have never really been a fan of the Airborne flip tips to begin with. I liked the old spring loaded Moyes tips, wish the manufacturers would go back to those. Or at least come up with an integral locking collar/slide for the flip tips.
_________________
Attitude is the dividing line between a life of adventure and an eternity of strife

Incident Reports :: RE: Icaro MastR: Spiral dive w/o recovery - batten clips opened

29 April, 2016 - 20:33
Author: Mavi Gogun
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:33 pm (GMT -8)

[quote="Bertram"] AIRTHUG wrote: Is it *AT ALL POSSIBLE* the glider had a significant left hand turn?

The glider didn't have a turn.

Unless you flew the glider just before the flight depicted, you can't say that with any authority. I believe Ryan is referring to the start of the dive before any discernible roll input, the glider banks. Was that the result of some subtle body tension? Some turns only show themselves at portions of the speed range.

Bertram wrote: And remember, there were two accidents with two different MastR (both dacron).

Maybe that was it. Maybe they were the same colour. Correlation ain't causation, but does suggests a place to start looking- not stop.

Bertram wrote: Manfreds glider was technora and it is unclear as to what else was different.

Two of my gliders roll out of a fast 60 degree turn merely by weight shifting to the side.

Manfred's demonstration was imperfect in several ways, described previously- and you're right to point to this particular deviation. Going back to the Ruhpolding recording, he achieved as much as 90 degree bank- several orders of magnitude more extreme than your sample. The comparisons lack fidelity.
_________________
Christopher LeFay

Aeros Discus 14 C/B

Preserve Free Flight in the U.S.- contribute here: http://ushpa.aero/freeflightforever.asp

Hang gliding general :: RE: Flymaster varios

29 April, 2016 - 20:21
Author: Georgelongshore
Subject: Flymaster varios
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:21 pm (GMT -8)

I have one. It is a nice instrument but.... I dont like that I have to have a seperate airspeed instrument to clamp on the glider and create drag. I also do not like the silly scuba neoprene and velcro mount that has to be used to attach it to the control frame. I had to use industrial velcro pads to mount it to a Flytec bar mount. These instruments were designed for paraglider pilots. They are fine for that, If you want to start targeting more hangglider pilots then you need to get them to incorporate featues that will allow them to be used on a hangglider that are not second thought compromises. Rigid mounts and integral airspeed are the first thing I can think of.
I have no doubt that the Flytec 6030 and the top of the line Flymaster have similar features, but the Flytec is on my{ and Niki's} glider when we fly because the Flymaster has yet to be hangglider control frame friendly. There is also no way to mount it in a pod without using velcro. And as of yet nobody is making an aerodynamic pod for it.
I put my flymaster in the Tempest ultralight sailplane finally so I have a vario on board. Have not had a chance to fly with it in the plane yet, will let you know how that works out.
_________________
Attitude is the dividing line between a life of adventure and an eternity of strife

Hang gliding general :: RE: Flymaster varios

29 April, 2016 - 20:21
Author: Georgelongshore
Subject: Flymaster varios
Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:21 pm (GMT -8)

I have one. It is a nice instrument but.... I dont like that I have to have a seperate airspeed instrument to clamp on the glider and create drag. I also do not like the silly scuba neoprene and velcro mount that has to be used to attach it to the control frame. I had to use industrial velcro pads to mount it to a Flytec bar mount. These instruments were designed for paraglider pilots. They are fine for that, If you want to start targeting more hangglider pilots then you need to get them to incorporate featues that will allow them to be used on a hangglider that are not second thought compromises. Rigid mounts and integral airspeed are the first thing I can think of.
I have no doubt that the Flytec 6030 and the top of the line Flymaster have similar features, but the Flytec is on my{ and Niki's} glider when we fly because the Flymaster has yet to be hangglider control frame friendly. There is also no way to mount it in a pod without using velcro. And as of yet nobody is making an aerodynamic pod for it.
I put my flymaster in the Tempest ultralight sailplane finally so I have a vario on board. Have not had a chance to fly with it in the plane yet, will let you know how that works out.
_________________
Attitude is the dividing line between a life of adventure and an eternity of strife