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Hang gliding general :: RE: Very sad news

6 February, 2016 - 03:50
Author: Jimmy D
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:50 pm (GMT -8)

I just got home from Dunellon the site of Tomas' accident. Some have asked for Tomas' wife's address to send a card etc...Dzaneta Banevicius 16 Edward St West Harrison NY 10604. If you care to make a donation with zero fee Dzaneta has a verified paypal account and the sender must also have a verified paypal account. here is the tutorial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEu-9i-07zQ
Or you can of course just mail a check. Please identify yourself as a fellow hang/para glider pilot. Tomas was a great guy, a great friend and the primary breadwinner so his wife and son will be most grateful. I am devastated and I am forever changed, I can only imagine how his wife and son are feeling .
Her email address is obelis04@yahoo.com I know it seems like every other day someone is asking for $ - do what you can -Your donation will not only help but show we take care of our own
_________________
Falcon225 / U2 155/Freedom 170

Hang gliding general :: RE: Best place for January flying???

6 February, 2016 - 02:36
Author: Rick M
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:36 pm (GMT -8)

Roadrunner wrote: Does anyone know if Jeff Hunt still rents gliders down in Valle?

Yes he does. See http://flymexico.com/mexico/
_________________
Rick
Hang 3 - WW U2 160
FL - ST - FSL - AT - TUR

"Once you have flown you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you long to return" -- Leonardo da Vinci

Hang gliding general :: RE: school fees, PASA or RRG??

6 February, 2016 - 02:06
Author: Rob McKenzie
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:06 pm (GMT -8)

I have a vivid memory of one of my first soaring flights where a very wonderful thing happened. A small little roundish bump of a mountain near Montreal called Mont St Gregoire. I was new to this magic of riding on a sail that deflected air downward as the wind into the hill was deflected upward. Winds were from the south this particular day as a front was passing through and the top of the hill was so narrow I had only about 100' width going left and right on the mountaintop to stay in the lift and I had to stay within 50' to 80' or so of the rocky top just to stay up. And it had snow flurries coming at me to give a great star travel effect. Then the magic happened. The frontal south winds began to switch direction. In a few passes I was now working a SW wind and then it was from the west a few passes later. I had to keep adjusting where I centered my passes on the hilltop. Over the course of probably 50 passes in 15 minutes the wind had clocked around to coming from the north and I was still working the marginal lift. What an interesting event for this newbie.

Fast forward some 40 years and I have spent nearly all of it in the hang gliding business. Some talk about the benefits of a wife that supports the husbands interest in teaching hang gliding. I know they are talking about their paycheck but I must say that I was even luckier. I found a wife that supported my addiction by NOT having a (other) job, but she got out there and worked the business alongside me.

I confess that in the fall of 2015 I was quite discouraged with the lack of support and professionalism at the local flying site that I was ready to close the business down. I confided with my local regional director about this important yet seemingly appropriate decision. That is when he informed me of the loss of insurance and upcoming uncertainty of forming an RRG.

I could retire as my wife and I have managed to save up about 20 years of living expense and have two houses paid for. Yes entirely from hang gliding. Toss in social security and it could likely be affordable to completely retire right now. I'm 60. But this change in the winds of this industry made me fear for what might happen to others who teach. I care. Surely this can still work! I can't help but stay in the game to help find a solution.

The pieces of the insurance puzzle came very slowly. And we are just starting to get a look at their shape. People far smarter than me are building the pieces. I am absolutely not a conspiracy theorist. I am sure they are making the pieces of the shape they are with no mal intent to me or anyone. They have the best interest of the sport in mind. I am in awe and very thankful of the way our community has pulled together the funds for the RRG.

So I might only have a handful of years left at most but I plan to put these puzzle pieces together and make it work in the time I have left. Sometimes people get lost and discouraged. They need to see that something that appears impossible is absolutely possible. As I round the clubhouse turn and head to the finish line I plan to pick up the pace and finish this race. Prices will rise. My services will be sharpened and improved. What irony that a change that some are fearing will cause them drop out is the same change that makes me want to not drop out. I'm very optimistic that this will all work out.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Best place for January flying???

6 February, 2016 - 01:11
Author: Roadrunner
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:11 pm (GMT -8)

Does anyone know if Jeff Hunt still rents gliders down in Valle?

Hang gliding general :: RE: “Commercial Operator”

6 February, 2016 - 00:35
Author: flyhg1
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:35 pm (GMT -8)

Mavi Gogun wrote: Bruce, is there some interpretation of "consummate cheerleader for all things USHPA" that doesn't amount to an attempt to discount without consideration?

It was not without due consideration.
_________________
H4; FL, AT, RLF, XC, TUR, AWCL, CL , FSL

Hang gliding general :: RE: Creating pilots that last

6 February, 2016 - 00:05
Author: flybop
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:05 pm (GMT -8)

Spydermike and Bouayo, congrats and welcome to this amazing world. From what I can see yo guys are well on your way. As others have said, the learning is just beginning. Spend as much time as you can at your sites. Offer to drive, do site work, bring a few extra beers...

I have been in and around aviation since I was a teenager. The vast majority of the pilots that I have been fortunate enough to know will go out of their way to help new pilots. That is new pilots who show a real eagerness to learn, demonstrate good, sound judgement and an overall good attitude.

Always be eager to fly, but not unwilling to break down. You will be amazed at how much you can learn in an afternoon on launch with experienced pilots, even if you do not fly. Use that hang waiting time to ask about the site, the local wx, other pilot's wings.

Pilots judge other pilots largely on their judgement. There was a new H2 who briefly lived in my area. After a long time waiting on launch this guy said something along the line of, "I took the time to drive here, carry my wing up and set up. I sure as hell am going to fly!" That was not a good attitude.

I'll never forget the day that I realized that I had reached a certain unspoken point in my flying. I showed up a little after several other guys were setting up. It was a good soaring day, but well within my experience level. This time all three of the guys launched, leaving me to self launch. (There were a couple pg'ers on launch.) That was a very cool way for me to know that I had come a long way.

Good luck and fly safe! And, show us some videos.
_________________
What a beautiful day! Let's go jump off a mountain!!!

"He did not know he could not fly and so he did" Guy Clark,

"The Cape" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6bZ37nexSY

Hang gliding general :: RE: Creating pilots that last

5 February, 2016 - 23:33
Author: Mavi Gogun
Subject: Re: Creating pilots that last
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:33 pm (GMT -8)

DAVE 858 wrote: I don't think the small instructors are going anywhere, they are just going to charge a LOT more for their services. Maybe instead of $150/lesson day it may be as high as $350/lesson day.

We now know that this figure- the daily increase in cost per student -will be around $20. Your estimate is off by 1000%.
_________________
Christopher LeFay

Aeros Discus 14 C/B

Preserve Free Flight in the U.S.- contribute here: http://ushpa.aero/freeflightforever.asp

Hang gliding general :: RE: Creating pilots that last

5 February, 2016 - 23:31
Author: mgforbes
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:31 pm (GMT -8)

I think that's a bit over the top. An extra $30 or so per lesson should cover the cost, so a $150 day-lesson last year might be $180 next year. That may discourage some casual interest, but I don't think it's a barrier to someone who's serious about learning to fly. If we can bring more value to the process by providing better online training tools for instructors including ground school videos and such, the student may actually be getting a better product for the price they pay.

The going rate for an engineering professional, billed out on a contract basis is over $300 per hour around here in Oregon. While flight training is not engineering, the fact is that it's a skilled task that requires both physical and mental ability and in-depth knowledge. An instructor charging $150 for a day's training is only getting $20/hour for an eight hour day. That's not minimum wage, but it's not far above either. Maybe it's our history, but we seem to be pricing our training services in 1975 dollars, and it's not 1975 any more.

MGF

Hang gliding general :: RE: school fees, PASA or RRG??

5 February, 2016 - 21:28
Author: amb
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:28 pm (GMT -8)

AIRTHUG wrote: Can someone help me see the optimism I'm desperately gasping for????

FWIW (from a prospective student), last year every place I know of near me was charging $175-200 for an intro lesson. If that's going up $20-30 this year to cover insurance it's not like I'm going to be happy about it, but $25 either way isn't going to make or break the decision for me, and if you (and Dan, and Morningside, and whoever else) are all charging that much more I'm not going to go elsewhere based on price, either.

Put another way, costs are going up, but you can pretty much pass it straight through to your students, and it doesn't seem to likely to chase any of them away.

Hang gliding general :: RE: Creating pilots that last

5 February, 2016 - 21:13
Author: DAVE 858
Subject: Re: Creating pilots that last
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:13 pm (GMT -8)

gluesniffer wrote: Getting that H2 is great, but there is still much to learn until a student becomes a real pilot. In my book, a real pilot is someone who can soar safely. These select few are having the real fun and imo are the ones who are going to stay in the sport the longest. That's what we all want right?

As the small instructors get pushed out by the current conditions we find ourselves in, we are going to have to rely on the bigger schools to fill our ranks.

Students are going to have to travel to learn. The instruction will be quicker and most likely just the minimums will be met when ratings are issued. These new h2's will go back home and then what?
Unless they are taken in and mentored by local pilots their chance of becoming a soaring, life time pilot is very small. And if they try to continue on their own, the risks are much higher.

So I believe it is the obligation of these few large schools, to make sure when issuing that H2 and sending the pilot back to their home that they make sure the H2 has a pathway to success. This means connecting their newly minted h2 with a mentor at their home sites. Otherwise what is the point of a rating? I think this should be mandatory of any instructor who issues a 2.
A 2 means nothing in my book.

I keep hearing people make reference to "Big Schools" & whatnot. Who are exactly are these said "Big Schools"? How many of them are there?

I just want to know who to hate on as this whole situation seems to be their fault anyway. DAMN THOSE BIG SCHOOLS & THEIR GREEDY MONOPOLY ON HANG GLIDING! DAMN THEM TO HELL!!!!

I am of course kidding. The reason I think nobody will refer to them (the big schools) by name is because nobody is really sure who they are or if they even exist. I personally feel we are all in the same boat with this. The whole thing is one massive s*** sandwich.

I don't think the small instructors are going anywhere, they are just going to charge a LOT more for their services. Maybe instead of $150/lesson day it may be as high as $350/lesson day. Who can afford that??? Well, someone who wants to learn bad enough I guess....

Personally I think the entire adventure sports industry is fucked. Kids play video games now a days. You get instant rewards with no work involved & if things don't go according to plan its always someone else's fault. Enjoy it while it lasts guys cause this s*** house is going up in flames quick!

Hang gliding general :: RE: school fees, PASA or RRG??

5 February, 2016 - 20:35
Author: TomGalvin
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:35 pm (GMT -8)

Or don't charge anything, and pay nothing other than the Rogallo Fees.
_________________
Hummingbird rancher

Hang gliding general :: RE: Best place for January flying???

5 February, 2016 - 20:31
Author: TomGalvin
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:31 pm (GMT -8)

Try a SW road trip from The Guads near Roswell, NM, Alamagordo, NM sites, Tuscon, AZ sites, San Diego area, Crestline then head back on I40 with a side trip to Echo Cliffs, AZ on your way to La Bajada near Sante Fe, NM.
_________________
Hummingbird rancher

Hang gliding general :: RE: “Commercial Operator”

5 February, 2016 - 20:30
Author: Mavi Gogun
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:30 pm (GMT -8)

Bruce wrote: Mavi Gogun wrote: Bruce, are you a current member of USHPA?

Yes

Cool. You might tell USHPA to update their records, as they don't list any current H-4's named "Bruce" that joined on or after 1998, as you introduced yourself. There are a number of expired Bruces, but nobody current.

Bruce wrote: If not, my interest would be that we share the same sky and for that to work we all have to abide by the rules.

Then there is no conflict- as professional tandem instruction is enshrined in "the rules".

I wrote: Given the pejorative cast you gave of supporting the organization, the question is pertinent.

Bruce wrote: Pejorative seems to be your favorite word. In this case, it does not apply.

Bruce, is there some interpretation of "consummate cheerleader for all things USHPA" that doesn't amount to an attempt to discount without consideration? As with the rules, you can have your own opinion- but not definition. You meant that as an insult- and very much as an 'expression of contempt, belittling, or disapproval'. You know- pejoratively.
_________________
Christopher LeFay

Aeros Discus 14 C/B

Preserve Free Flight in the U.S.- contribute here: http://ushpa.aero/freeflightforever.asp

Hang gliding general :: RE: Exotic HG locations

5 February, 2016 - 20:19
Author: butchpeachy
Subject: place
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:19 pm (GMT -8)

jcote: I've flown on 5 continents at many of the sites mentioned on this forum.

Cokes Cliffs 100 miles "South of the Border, Down Mexico Way"and Jean NV are a couple of high lights in my flying experience.

Cokes is a 7 mile long cliff off the Pacific Ocean were the cliff starts at 200 ft and raises up to 700 ft. This is the first place I flew tandem. I took our driver.
She exclaimed within the first minute of the flight. "This is nothing like I thought it would be. It's like laying on the couch looking down."

From that point onward we lost her as driver. She became a bi wing pilot with a hang glider and later a PG.

Jean NV is another low cliff on dry lake bed. I was there for a Spring two day flyin with the locals.

Climbing to 10k msl then heading toward Las Vegas, I had no driver and was under dress for the conditions. Near cloud base over the Las Vegas McCarran Airport, I was amazed at what seemed like a 100 airliners coming and going from every direction below me
.
Freezing i flew northeast up the I-15 under the cloud street.. After shivering for another 30 mins I blew off the potential 100 mile XC and turned 90 degree south and flew over Lake Mead and Hoover Dam. I spied a group of local pilots who had landed in the desert so I spun down. Warm again.
I hope you can get to these rarely flown sites.
Butch

Hang gliding general :: RE: “Commercial Operator”

5 February, 2016 - 20:08
Author: flyhg1
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:08 pm (GMT -8)

Mavi Gogun wrote: Bruce, are you a current member of USHPA?

Yes

Quote: If not, what is your interest?

If not, my interest would be that we share the same sky and for that to work we all have to abide by the rules.

Quote: Given the pejorative cast you gave of supporting the organization, the question is pertinent.

Pejorative seems to be your favorite word. In this case, it does not apply.
_________________
H4; FL, AT, RLF, XC, TUR, AWCL, CL , FSL

Hang gliding Videos :: RE: Albania Site Guide Video Tours

5 February, 2016 - 20:07
Author: mrcc
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:07 pm (GMT -8)

WOW What a trip

Great video editing, so enjoyable.
_________________
WW U2-160
Enables one to get high.

Hang gliding general :: RE: school fees, PASA or RRG??

5 February, 2016 - 19:29
Author: Rebardan
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:29 am (GMT -8)

Separating those two components of instruction (tandem and new pilot) would allow rating the activities differently and assigning dollar premium values to each as the losses incurred by each mount or decline year to year. Analysis of the known loss history from the past decade should provide ample data to weight each activity accurately.
Unless I'm completely wrong in the fact that history always repeats itself.

Hang gliding general :: RE: school fees, PASA or RRG??

5 February, 2016 - 19:19
Author: Mavi Gogun
Subject: Re: Just for comparison...
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:19 am (GMT -8)

blindrodie wrote: In 1998 at Morningside I payed $100 for a "day" lesson.

Inflated for today, that's $145. With the new insurance scheme, as much as $165 (though we can expect Morningside to opt for lower rates through securing a direct contract with the RRG).
_________________
Christopher LeFay

Aeros Discus 14 C/B

Preserve Free Flight in the U.S.- contribute here: http://ushpa.aero/freeflightforever.asp

Hang gliding general :: RE: school fees, PASA or RRG??

5 February, 2016 - 19:14
Author: Mavi Gogun
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:14 am (GMT -8)

AIRTHUG wrote: Also, can I have a clarification if 4 new students on the same day is *1* SLD or *4* SLD's?

Ryan, you had better well hope that each student taught on any given day ads to the SLD count for that day- otherwise, instructors would have a compelling financial incentive to "teach" huge herds of "students". 4 Students taught on the same day count as 4 SLD's.
_________________
Christopher LeFay

Aeros Discus 14 C/B

Preserve Free Flight in the U.S.- contribute here: http://ushpa.aero/freeflightforever.asp

Hang gliding general :: RE: school fees, PASA or RRG??

5 February, 2016 - 19:13
Author: blindrodie
Subject: Just for comparison...
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:13 am (GMT -8)

In 1998 at Morningside I payed $100 for a "day" lesson. About 4 hours of instruction to setup a Falcon 1 and do about 10 FL's up to the 150 foot height...

Was a USHGA member prior to that with no formal training.


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