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Updated: 2 hours 18 min ago

Q&A, Learning to hang glide :: RE: Rookie Sail-Plane Pilot, seeks some impute.

2 hours 57 min ago
Author: TjW
Subject: Re: Living Life, living the life of the Phoenix
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:21 pm (GMT -8)

Roadrunner wrote: Hi Guy's:

But when flying a Sail-Plane. I am not in a Situation where I can try unorthodox things. Hell for the first thing: I fly with another Pilot..

Sure you can. Discuss it with your instructor beforehand, of course. That's why he's there. One of my instructors said "I can't really teach you how to fly. The best I can do is keep you alive while you teach yourself."
You can find out first hand why it's not a good idea to fly really slow in a turn, and then try to roll out.
Where I learned to fly, they insisted I learn to spin and recover. That isn't a requirement for the private pilot glider certificate, but it was for the FBO that I learned at. Spiral dives were actually scarier to me; in a spin, you don't really build up any g load.
I'm afraid I goofed around once I went solo. I had to requalify with an instructor every 45 days (FBO again, FAA limit is 90).
When Galen informed me that for my logbook signature, I was going to do a touch and go while under tow, I took that as a hint that I should piss or get off the pot. Interesting experience, though. It's really hard, even in a draggy old 2-33, not to overrun the tow plane on the descent.

Incident Reports :: RE: Cross controlling bad approach & crash on a topless.

6 hours 22 min ago
Author: Wonder Boy
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:56 pm (GMT -8)

NMERider wrote: highhuber wrote: Although this landing approach was a bit scary, the pilot stayed with it and got it on the ground with no damage.

If people weren't so critical and displayed a bit more comraderie maybe he would have been told at launch which field was the proper LZ.

Although this is a public internet forum we should all try to bring some good will and brotherhood to it and too our sport and give our sky brothers and sisters the benefit of our hard earned wisdom without the negative BS.

Ignacio, I moved up very quickly in the performance ladder also but found the LaMouette Topless I bought to handle way better then the Attack Duck sold to me by my instructors.

The one thing about a performance wing though is that it needs a larger area to land it. My suggestion is that you get a drogue chute and practice with it to learn how much it will degrade your ground skim.

Deploying one in this LZ would have made your landing a lot less scary and you would have had enough area to perform a controlled flare even downhill and in a lite downwind.

Don't take the negative comments too seriously most pilots are just suffering from no airtime. Hope to get to fly with you sometime soon.

hh Scot,

The conversation started on Facebook and everyone was initially civil toward Ignacio AKA: Zopilote. Ignacio responded by taking everything personally as if we were attacking his manhood even though this was not the case. It was pretty obvious that he was soliciting praise for his perceived heroics and was not expecting such a backlash. He then went on the offensive and started making personal attacks against me specifically and the community in general.

He openly admitted that he was flying with a drag chute and made a conscious decision not to use it. He openly admitted that he was sick with the flu and that he knew better than to fly his T2C 144 while in his sickened condition. He did not admit that he still owns a terrific Falcon 3 195 that he could have easily and wisely substituted in place of the less forgiving T2C 144.

I have flown with Ignacio many times and he typically climbs to the top of the stack. His normal landing technique is often excellent. Nobody was questioning his skills (when not sick with flu). What we were questioning was his judgement. What we took offense to was his attitude. He has exhibited poor judgement and a very hazardous attitude. He has a chip on his shoulder and has something to prove. It is the man's attitude and judgement that are on trial here and not his manhood or his flying talent.

Any pilot regardless of who they may be needs to listen closely and not take personally, valid criticism from more experienced pilots against poor judgement and hazardous attitudes. That is what this is about. Unless there is a real change of judgement and attitude he will find himself with a rating reduction, injury or both.

The last time a certain friend of mine piled in to the side of a certain launch about 20' below a group of pilots and family, I personally reached out to our local RD and got his rating pulled down to H1. He was suspended from flying that site for a year pending self-improvement. I called him in his hospital room and told him that as his friend I was the one who busted him. I also told him that he was free to fly out in the desert sites all he wanted and I'd be happy to try and help him improve. he has improved a great deal and is working his way back up in hang ratings too.

In that case it was a combination of both poor skills and poor judgement. His attitude was positive. he was hooked on flying and overly enthusiastic. That's a different situation. He had nothing to prove. He just wanted to fly.

Well said JD
_________________
Mike

Everyone who lives dies, yet not everyone who dies, has lived.
We take these risks not to escape life, but to prevent life escaping us.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CenterOFLIFT/

Hang gliding general :: RE: Retro

6 hours 27 min ago
Author: psydor
Subject: RX2
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:51 pm (GMT -8)

Johannes,

I had the opportunity to test fly an RX2. It is the sweetest flying glider I have ever flown.

A few other pilots I know and respect for their experience and skills, also tried the RX2 and agree that there is something very special about the way it handles.

The RX2 is a joy to fly. I hope you enjoy yours.

Paul

PS I want one.
_________________
Eagle 164=>Sport2 155=>Freedom 170

Hang gliding general :: RE: Dinosaur 2015 Comp

6 hours 58 min ago
Author: dave hopkins
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:20 pm (GMT -8)

davisstraub wrote: Dave,

We didn't know any better.

Been there, done that

The camp fire :: RE: 6,000 ft/min climb!

7 hours 9 min ago
Author: dave hopkins
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:09 pm (GMT -8)

BBJCaptain wrote: AndRand wrote: Design flaw?
It looks like design perfection - 60,3m span aircraft that can stay in stall for more than a minute is quite impressive (or maybe it is just accomplishment of computerized avionics)
The report says that stall alarm was heard during that time.


Well, I didn't want to get into a Boeing / Airbus feud but since you brought it up lets start with the one thing that would have saved 447

The Boeing has interconnected flight controls right between each pilots legs. If one pilot makes a control input the other can see the control
column move right in front of him. The Airbus has joysticks like a video controller that are located on the side panels and if one pilot makes a
control input the other control stick just stands straight up like a 16yr olds manhood waiting for his prom date to get her panties off and never
moves.

In the Boeing if one pilot is holding the control column full nose up the other pilot will have the control column jammed into his stomach even
in a dark cockpit at night. In the Airbus the other pilot would have no idea unless he looks across the cockpit and look right at the other pilots
hand on the control stick.

Add onto that, in "dual input" mode on the Airbus if on pilot has full nose up and the other pilot moves his stick full nose down the
computers averages out the inputs. The Airbus is a fly by wire and the stick controls have NO physical connection to the control surfaces.

Here is a text version of the CVR for 447
The comment by Capt. Dubois sealed their fate
at 3:13


Link


Seems like the only chance they would have had would to have deployed the flaps and slats and full power. they may have generated enough lift to scrape off the ocean.
But I guess you couldn't expect that from a crew that that can't figure out nose down in a stall.

Incident Reports :: RE: Cross controlling bad approach & crash on a topless.

7 hours 39 min ago
Author: Nate
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:39 pm (GMT -8)

I hope he keeps posting vid.

Hang gliding Videos :: RE: Top Landings Only

8 hours 12 min ago
Author: waveview
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:06 pm (GMT -8)

Nicos , Montana looks to have some good mountain launch areas. What are the sites in Montana?

Be great to if you make it over to Western Australia. The coastal sites near Albany work wel in December, January and February. 200 mile plus cross country flight are possible and being flown from Mount Bakewell near Perth. also lots of flatlands towing options after the wheat harvest in December.

Mike
_________________
Don't let gravity get you down.

Incident Reports :: RE: Cross controlling bad approach & crash on a topless.

8 hours 21 min ago
Author: smokenjoe50
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:57 pm (GMT -8)

This was the pilots 3rd flight from Elsinore. He launched edwards twice and this was his first flight from the E. For those that don't know the 2 launches are a mile apart. They both use the same LZ.

Hang gliding general :: RE: NewUserFromPoland

8 hours 51 min ago
Author: Piterowy
Subject: thx
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:27 pm (GMT -8)

Hey, guys! Thanks for a warm welcome

Regarding my training - I'm actually doing it in Czech Republic near Polish border. I live in Warsaw so it's a bit of a drive, but it's worth it. The school is called speedbar.cz I have a very good instructor there who speaks Polish very well.
When it comes to Polish 'education system', it's pretty much non-existent. We only have one hang-gliding school, I had tried it but preferred the Czech one.

Incident Reports :: RE: Cross controlling bad approach & crash on a topless.

8 hours 51 min ago
Author: Nicos
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:27 pm (GMT -8)

JackieB wrote: I would never consider flying at a new site, that is someone else's home flying site (even if it's on public land), without a thorough briefing by experienced locals, and their opinion that I can handle the challenges of their site based on my level of experience and the conditions. That's so fundamental and important.
Couldn't agree more.

Seems like if you go to a new site and don't ask the locals for a briefing, well, seems like you have complacency setting in, if not full blown Intermediate Syndrome. That's not the seller's fault, that's a red flag to other pilots.

I hope someone can bring him round, seems like only a flying buddy can do that at this stage

Incident Reports :: RE: Cross controlling bad approach & crash on a topless.

8 hours 53 min ago
Author: NMERider
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:25 pm (GMT -8)

highhuber wrote: Although this landing approach was a bit scary, the pilot stayed with it and got it on the ground with no damage.

If people weren't so critical and displayed a bit more comraderie maybe he would have been told at launch which field was the proper LZ.

Although this is a public internet forum we should all try to bring some good will and brotherhood to it and too our sport and give our sky brothers and sisters the benefit of our hard earned wisdom without the negative BS.

Ignacio, I moved up very quickly in the performance ladder also but found the LaMouette Topless I bought to handle way better then the Attack Duck sold to me by my instructors.

The one thing about a performance wing though is that it needs a larger area to land it. My suggestion is that you get a drogue chute and practice with it to learn how much it will degrade your ground skim.

Deploying one in this LZ would have made your landing a lot less scary and you would have had enough area to perform a controlled flare even downhill and in a lite downwind.

Don't take the negative comments too seriously most pilots are just suffering from no airtime. Hope to get to fly with you sometime soon.

hh Scot,

The conversation started on Facebook and everyone was initially civil toward Ignacio AKA: Zopilote. Ignacio responded by taking everything personally as if we were attacking his manhood even though this was not the case. It was pretty obvious that he was soliciting praise for his perceived heroics and was not expecting such a backlash. He then went on the offensive and started making personal attacks against me specifically and the community in general.

He openly admitted that he was flying with a drag chute and made a conscious decision not to use it. He openly admitted that he was sick with the flu and that he knew better than to fly his T2C 144 while in his sickened condition. He did not admit that he still owns a terrific Falcon 3 195 that he could have easily and wisely substituted in place of the less forgiving T2C 144.

I have flown with Ignacio many times and he typically climbs to the top of the stack. His normal landing technique is often excellent. Nobody was questioning his skills (when not sick with flu). What we were questioning was his judgement. What we took offense to was his attitude. He has exhibited poor judgement and a very hazardous attitude. He has a chip on his shoulder and has something to prove. It is the man's attitude and judgement that are on trial here and not his manhood or his flying talent.

Any pilot regardless of who they may be needs to listen closely and not take personally, valid criticism from more experienced pilots against poor judgement and hazardous attitudes. That is what this is about. Unless there is a real change of judgement and attitude he will find himself with a rating reduction, injury or both.

The last time a certain friend of mine piled in to the side of a certain launch about 20' below a group of pilots and family, I personally reached out to our local RD and got his rating pulled down to H1. He was suspended from flying that site for a year pending self-improvement. I called him in his hospital room and told him that as his friend I was the one who busted him. I also told him that he was free to fly out in the desert sites all he wanted and I'd be happy to try and help him improve. he has improved a great deal and is working his way back up in hang ratings too.

In that case it was a combination of both poor skills and poor judgement. His attitude was positive. he was hooked on flying and overly enthusiastic. That's a different situation. He had nothing to prove. He just wanted to fly.

Incident Reports :: RE: Cross controlling bad approach & crash on a topless.

8 hours 56 min ago
Author: Paul H
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:22 pm (GMT -8)

The pilot obviously used NO skills, he was just a passenger along for the ride. He survived by pure luck.

The camp fire :: RE: AMERICAN SNIPER

8 hours 58 min ago
Author: davisstraub
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:21 pm (GMT -8)

"“Hostile feelings for the opposing party are ingrained or automatic in voters’ minds,” Shanto Iyengar, a political scientist at Stanford, and Sean Westwood, a post-doctoral researcher at Princeton, wrote in a July 2014 paper “Fear and Loathing Across Party Lines.” Partisans now discriminate against their adversaries “to a degree that exceeds discrimination based on race.” The authors find that this discrimination pervades decision making of all kinds, from hiring to marriage choices."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/28/opinion/how-did-politics-get-so-personal.html
_________________
Davis Straub at the Oz Report

Incident Reports :: RE: Cross controlling bad approach & crash on a topless.

8 hours 58 min ago
Author: gluesniffer
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:20 pm (GMT -8)

So this pilot was getting attitude from the locals before his flight, and that is why he landed where and how he did?
The pilot obviously used skills to stay alive, but it was his poor judgment that got him into the predicament in the first place.

Incident Reports :: RE: Cross controlling bad approach & crash on a topless.

8 hours 59 min ago
Author: Paul H
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:19 pm (GMT -8)

highhuber wrote: Although this landing approach was a bit scary, the pilot stayed with it and got it on the ground with no damage.

If people weren't so critical and displayed a bit more comraderie maybe he would have been told at launch which field was the proper LZ.

hh

You must have missed this post by one of the local pilots. The incident pilot has no one to blame but himself for his lack of site knowledge.

Eteamjack wrote: One of the scariest landings I've seen in ages I was there . No one realized he did'nt have a clue and he didn't seek input from the locals..

Hang gliding Videos :: RE: A Couple Videos About Landings

9 hours 10 min ago
Author: Jason
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:08 pm (GMT -8)

NMERider wrote:
Cheers, JD
1- i would need to see hard data to believe this
2- i was on my sensor, flaps down, light wind,ever so slightly downhill and initiated a rapid stall, immediately pulled in hard, and immediately flared....was it 1;1 or 2:1 i don't know, i have no data, the equipment i had at the time didn't record anything, a litek vario, but the glider came down like a rock
3- I've never flown a sport 2, but if a litespeed RX can land there, its plenty big enough for a sport 2
_________________
TSA, NSA Sieg Heil! (HAIL VICTORY)

Incident Reports :: RE: Cross controlling bad approach & crash on a topless.

9 hours 13 min ago
Author: flyin_canuck
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:05 pm (GMT -8)

Come on Scott

did you notice him hit the ground with the corner of the control bar 100 feet before the final crash, its amazing it didn't all end right there

But as mentioned I am way more critical of the jerk that sold a topless to an H2 than I am of an H2 thinking he could fly it...especially given the sensitivity of the sites in California

As a community we just can't be doing s*** like that.

Incident Reports :: RE: Cross controlling bad approach & crash on a topless.

9 hours 17 min ago
Author: JackieB
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:02 pm (GMT -8)

lostgriz wrote: Those that don't believe the seller of a high performance glider has any responsibility to confirm the pilot is reasonably qualified, should remember that we are self regulated. If we want to remain as such, we had all better have an interest in the safety of our fellow pilots and the security of our sites.

Matt

I'm so glad you reminded us of this point. Not one of us has a legal "right" to fly. It's all by generous permission of the FAA and Part 103. That thought may leave a bitter taste in the mouth of some, but it's imperative that we all work together.

I was so glad that this pilot was not injured, but it was pretty scary thinking of the other implications as well. When I fly, I am always conscious of how I am representing our sport and other pilots.

Accidents can happen to anyone. But I would never consider flying at a new site, that is someone else's home flying site (even if it's on public land), without a thorough briefing by experienced locals, and their opinion that I can handle the challenges of their site based on my level of experience and the conditions. That's so fundamental and important.

Hang gliding Videos :: RE: A Couple Videos About Landings

9 hours 24 min ago
Author: NMERider
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:54 pm (GMT -8)

Jason wrote: ....well there are a few problems- you claim airspeed is 25% higher........than what?

A simple look at a polar shows that what you are doing is flying the "backside" of the polar. this corresponds to a speed slower than best sink and at or near stall

yes- less of the wing is flying, at a much higher angle of attack. when you go to recover from this, you will loose altitude and pick up speed. make sure you get enough speed before you run out of altitude


in the last many years I've been flying. I have done a stalled approach only once....coming in too high at Horse, into the postage stamp....I stalled it probably 30-40 feet up, immediately pulled in, and as I was diving at the ground flared for everything...I stopped on the ground gently with a step or two. from where i stalled/mushed to where I landed was probably on the order of a 1:1 glide

its not something i would do regularly, as eventually it will bite you...but as a last ditch attempt to avoid a crash in trees/bushes etc it might work


as Rob said- i much prefer to come in and play with my glide control on the other side of the polar

this landing for example I don't see any reason why it couldn't have been done with the wing flying the entire time.....especially on something like a sport 2
Jason,
You have brought up many valid points with one exception. I'll tell you what I know from experience and what needs to be tested and measured if I get the opportunity and one other thing.

1 - At the speeds where airflow separation begins the polar becomes less meaningful. Numerous past experiences have shown me that the polar curve should bend back beneath itself at a steep angle and move forward along the X axis and be labeled (separated airflow region). There may be different ways that airflow will separate depending on the wing loading, glider, VG setting, etc. It seems to be abnormal flight and I doubt the usual rules apply so neatly.

I recall flying my Sport 2 155 down to 22mph without airflow separation and it is indeed on the backside of the polar as you describe. If I slow it further and get the wing buffeting then hold it steady, the airspeed increases to around 26mph and the sink rate goes way up. That is my recollection from many different flights. In the interest of debunking my own anecdotal data I will try to do this late in the day after the lift has shut down and see if I can measure what I just described for several iterations. I will present my findings and igc file (track log) for anyone interested.

2 - You talk about doing a stalled approach. There is a difference between porpoising and mushing. Mushing is a more or less steady state with the glider on a relatively even path with the nose attitude fairly constant. Porpoising as you describe squeezing into the Postage Stamp bailout involves making the glider do pitch oscillation where the nose-up attitude exceeds the steady state mush and the glider alternates between flying and a semi-deep stall. That is how I land my R/C sailplanes that lack flaps and spoilers.

The tight approach you describe with a 1:1 glide path corresponds to a porpoise. It is not the same thing as a mush approach. As far as you claim of a 1:1 glide path goes, you did not state the wind speed, glider or wing loading. If it was your T2C 144 on a hot, nil wind day, you can guess my reaction to that. If it was your tandem Falcon flown solo on a cool day with a 5mph breeze my reaction would be kinder.

3 - It's easy to second-guess what would have happened had I dove into ground effect from the same point where I imitated the mushing. How many hours and flights do you have on a Sport 2 155? I have a measly 138:20hrs over 91 flights. Obviously I don't know very much about the landing characteristics of these highly unpredictable beasts of the sky. But who am I not to Monday Morning Quarterback myself anyway?

I was at 74' AGL and 800' from the drop-off at the end of the bailout in zero VG. Had I just flown the glider down at trim speed I would have been fine. However, I did not know this at the time since I have never landed this field and only walked it once, briefly but did not measure it. I opted for the 'better safe than sorry' approach and it paid off.

Here is the data: I began the mush at 85.3' AGL and traveled 633' to landing. The drop-off is ~200' past where I landed. So mushing gave me a 7.4:1 glide path in dead air. Had I simply dove into ground effect and skimmed in zero VG I may have landed in the same spot or even sooner. I don't really know. However, this would have given Phill more time and room to for his approach on my tail.

This is why I prefer just using the drag chute and I was flying with the 72" drag chute that functions so well I flew into the ground exactly one year ago and crunched up my neck. It was no fault of the drag chute. That was 100% pilot error and perfect weather and equipment. I plan on making a better deployment system for my drag chute pocket with a sleeve that turns inside out like the European pilots use. In nil to light winds that is by far the safest way to squeeze in.

Now for the shameless product plug! If anyone is interested the 60" version is in production and available from Rocketman: http://www.the-rocketman.com/hang.html

Cheers, JD

The camp fire :: RE: AMERICAN SNIPER

9 hours 31 min ago
Author: Aldpal
Subject: Steve, Steve, Steve.....
Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:47 pm (GMT -8)

Steve (Dayhead), Come On Buddy, you are forming your opinion of all conservatives (including me?) based on the portrayal of a make believe right wing character creating by a television show. And you are getting a better understanding of me based on a psychoanalyst's book on GWB. Here is some contrasting opinions of the Author of the book you are reading:

Frank's book also has its detractors. Writing for the conservative magaize The Weekly Standard! Irwin Savodnik, a psychiatrist who teaches at the University of California, Los Angeles, described Frank's book as a "psychoanalytic hatchet job" and said that "there is not an ounce of psychoanalytic material in the entire book."[1] The code of the American Psychiatric Association, of which Frank is not a current member, states that "it is unethical for a psychiatrist to offer a professional opinion unless he or she has conducted an examination and has been granted proper authorization for such a statement." [2] Although Frank had in the past written for Salon.com, the online magazine reviewed the book unfavorably, arguing that it included "dubious theories" and that Frank had failed in his avowed intention to distinguish his partisan opinions from his psychoanalytic evaluation of Bush's character.[3]

I am sure the writers of NCIS are also totally unbiased, just like the rest of "Hollywood". Why is it that most people that lean left seem to think they are so open minded, yet, they have so much trouble in their narrow minded view of conservatives or what our opinions are. By the way I do not know if Clint is brave or not, but it certainly takes courage for anyone employed in the Holiwood entertainment industry to express a conservative opinion due to the open backlash that always ensues. I would be happy to debate any issue with you the next time we go flying, but from my biased perspective it always ends up basically being a debate between feelings or emotions, against reasoning, or to be even more biased, between fantasy and reality. It is also difficult to get anywhere in a debate, when you have to first debate the meaning of things such as what "is" is.