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Incident Reports :: RE: Icaro MastR: Spiral dive w/o recovery - batten clips opened

26 April, 2015 - 02:57
Author: boarini2003
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:57 pm (GMT -8)

Fletcher wrote:
Seems to me the pilot didn't put much effort into correcting the turn and futzed with his reserve all the way to the ground.

I had the same reaction. Seems like perhaps a strong correction to the right could have helped. But then again, it's easy to armchair quarterback.
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Incident Reports :: RE: Icaro MastR: Spiral dive w/o recovery - batten clips opened

26 April, 2015 - 02:56
Author: rregier
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:56 pm (GMT -8)

This happened to me a couple summers back. Flying my S2-155 under tow (stationary winch) under moderately choppy and thermal conditions. At about 800' agl, I took a gust and the glider entered a left hand lock-out I wasn't able to pull out of. I released from the line just as the top operator released tension. The glider continued in a severe left turn. I was able to stabilize the glider, but not get it flying level. I locked my right elbow around the right down tube and flew it to the landing field. Managed a reasonable landing, mostly because the 15 kmh winds kept the ground speed low. On the ground I saw that three inboard batten levers had popped. They had always been tight to install, but I hadn't any reference point. On inspection, the tips weren't seated deep enough into the batten. I had to get a 7 mm tap to cut additional thread and seat the batten tip shoulder flush against the batten. This reduced the batten / sail tension considerably. Installation during set up is now easy and it hasn't happened since. I do replace tips that appear to be weaker as a result of general wear and tear.

Hang gliding general :: RE: HG Midair.... UGLY!

26 April, 2015 - 02:38
Author: darkcloud
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:38 pm (GMT -8)

SeeMarkFly wrote: Comet wrote: Yet another case of hostility between CA pilots.

Add this to the Funston "flat tire" incidents and the Torrey nonsense.
What camaraderie!
Aahhh... California, where money matters but people don't.

I have never been happier in my life now that I completely avoid Banksters, Insurance agents, Credit cards and Real Estate agents... stopped voting too.

And paying sales tax. Next time I pass through KPDX I'm buying a GoPro.

Incident Reports :: RE: Icaro MastR: Spiral dive w/o recovery - batten clips opened

26 April, 2015 - 01:49
Author: Fletcher
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:49 pm (GMT -8)

I watched the video several times
Seems to me the pilot didn't put much effort into correcting the turn and futzed with his reserve all the way to the ground.
With the situation he was in are the G forces too strong to high side the control frame to correct the turn?
Two mistakes come to mind
1-Radical maneuvers close to the ground
2- Not having a readily available reserve and knowing how to deploy it
Never been in that situation and would like to know.

Q&A, Learning to hang glide :: RE: is hang gliding safer than paragliding?

26 April, 2015 - 01:41
Author: Scott MacLeod
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:41 pm (GMT -8)

I fly both and they each have there charms. Despite what some may claim, one is not safer than the other. Both can kill you if you don't pay attention. Enjoy them both and your flying opportunies are less limited.

Cheers
Scott
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Incident Reports :: RE: Icaro MastR: Spiral dive w/o recovery - batten clips opened

26 April, 2015 - 01:24
Author: NMERider
Subject: Re: Icaro MastR: Spiral dive w/o recovery - batten clips ope
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:24 pm (GMT -8)

JackieB wrote: NMERider wrote: I would expect that if he had released his VG enough that the glider would have recovered or been recoverable.

Comment from JackieB
If I read the translated DHV analysis correctly, it said just that. Specifically, that the manufacturer did the test with the battens intentionally open and recovered, but "spiral dive was also not flown with strongly drawn bow"., which I take to mean with the VG loose.

So I think your advice about being able to immediately release the VG at any time is extremely important. JackieB, I did not invent the technique of holding the VG rope in my hand. It derives from sailing and holding the main sheet in your hand and again I borrowed it from far more experienced pilots who taught me that they will only perform spins or beat ups with the VG rope ready to be released at all times. I do a significant amount of my flying with the rope in my hand and not just for safety reasons either. But I also have to rag on those vertically oriented jam cleats. I think they are arcane and should be replaced with either a Moyes type cleat or a Wills Wing type cleat that allows for quick and easy release of the VG rope.

Side-mounted reserves are their own animal and their own topic altogether.
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Hang gliding Videos :: RE: Winch hanggliding video on new wing

26 April, 2015 - 01:18
Author: CP
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:18 pm (GMT -8)

Really well done
Wish I could edit like that.
That Icro looks a lot like the Freedom from North Wing. I wonder how they compare?

Thanks for sharing.

Incident Reports :: RE: Icaro MastR: Spiral dive w/o recovery - batten clips opened

26 April, 2015 - 01:16
Author: NMERider
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:16 pm (GMT -8)

pud wrote: ...The tolerances are tiny and the whole issue could be solved for want of one penny worth of plastic. Mike,
Good point about the compression vector missing from the bench tests!

I've never had a Wills Wing flip lever fail in flight and that includes my T2C 144 that has over 1000 hours on the original battens. Wills Wing charges $1.20 each for their lever tips. If I replace these every 300 hours at a cost of ~ 24.00 + sale tax that works out to roughly $0.10 per hour or 1/100th the cost of amortizing a new T2C sail.

Sadly, hang glider pilots are notoriously impoverished or otherwise unwilling or reluctant to replace known worn out parts. One acquaintance broke an old 2mm side wire while swooping the LZ and suffered a broken arm and extensive glider damage. Another destroyed his glider and nearly himself by looping with a set of old 2mm side wires. One had his badly worn internal VG rope break and got away with just a bad flight and safe landing.

I don't know the pilot who spiraled in but I have to wonder whether he was aware of the condition of his lever tips or if this is really a wider problem. I also have to wonder whether Icaro got its hands on a bad batch of these lever tips and if they were all placed into production for the MastR gliders and this may be an isolated event?

For a dollar or so, any could deliberately try forcing an installed lever tip to fail and note the amount of pressure required and then replace it with a new one. If it fails too easily, then the pilot should assume they're are lame and just replace the set as part of routine maintenance.

Since I don't have enough facts to draw any conclusions I would like to know more about this glider that spiraled in.
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Q&A, Learning to hang glide :: RE: is hang gliding safer than paragliding?

26 April, 2015 - 01:05
Author: gone birdy
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:05 pm (GMT -8)

Hi all,

It would be nice if an experienced paraglider (300 hrs+) who also flies hang gliders could comment on this.

I am an intermediate PG pilot who just joined the forum because my interest in HG is growing. At the moment I am viewing HG as an addition to my flying hobbies, not a replacement. I still experience a lot of joy flying paragliders but I am sure that in certain conditions HG is a better way to go.

Hope to hear from you experienced bi-wingual pilots out there.

Cheers
GB

Incident Reports :: RE: Icaro MastR: Spiral dive w/o recovery - batten clips opened

26 April, 2015 - 01:05
Author: JackieB
Subject: Re: Icaro MastR: Spiral dive w/o recovery - batten clips ope
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:05 pm (GMT -8)

NME Rider wrote:

I would expect that if he had released his VG enough that the glider would have recovered or been recoverable. .

End of Quote


Comment from JackieB
If I read the translated DHV analysis correctly, it said just that. Specifically, that the manufacturer did the test with the battens intentionally open and recovered, but "spiral dive was also not flown with strongly drawn bow"., which I take to mean with the VG loose.

So I think your advice about being able to immediately release the VG at any time is extremely important.

Incident Reports :: RE: Icaro MastR: Spiral dive w/o recovery - batten clips opened

26 April, 2015 - 00:51
Author: pud
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:51 pm (GMT -8)

Yes, I’m an old fart but I don’t like these consumable ‘iffy’ batten ends over simple and virtually indestructible bungee or string.
Low drag they might be but I have to replace my outboard ones far too often else they pop open when the tips brush the ground.
This means I have an extra potential problem and something else I need to check just before take off.
All for the sake of something that is going to make an immeasurable difference to my flying.

The tests shown in post #5 don’t take into account that normally the unit is under compression.
The more compression the less the ‘hook over’ action as the hook ends move away from each other.
The tolerances are tiny and the whole issue could be solved for want of one penny worth of plastic.
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Incident Reports :: RE: Icaro MastR: Spiral dive w/o recovery - batten clips opened

26 April, 2015 - 00:25
Author: NMERider
Subject: Re: Icaro MastR: Spiral dive w/o recovery - batten clips ope
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:25 pm (GMT -8)

Bertram wrote: ....The pilot was lucky to survive, although with serious injuries.
Thanks Bertram. Pilots should know that once a flip lever has been forced open it should be discarded and replaced. They lose a substantial degree of their holding power after the first time they are forced.

Pilots should think twice about doing radical maneuver that close to the ground without holding the VG rope in their hand. I would expect that if he had released his VG enough that the glider would have recovered or been recoverable. But that's difficult when the rope is secured in a vertical cleat. Those vertically oriented sailboat jam cleats are bad news as they take extra hand motions in order to free the rope. My Sensor came with one of these sailboat jam cleats and I replaced it with a Moyes-style cleat that requires only a fraction of the hand/wrist motion to engage and disengage.

I hope the pilot recovers.
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Hang gliding general :: RE: HG Midair.... UGLY!

25 April, 2015 - 23:37
Author: NMERider
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:37 pm (GMT -8)

JR wrote: ....After viewing the video several times, I would suggest that while there may have been some comparative negligence on both pilots, Craig had the greater degree of fault as he had a clear view of the situation developing. Rather than making useless hand gestures, he should have turned away himself rather than closing the distance with Mark.... There's more that I haven't revealed. According to witnesses this was Craig's first flight in two years. According to a conversation with Craig (pen and paper or via PM) during the preceding 15 years Craig had only flown once or twice each year. According to knowledgeable sources during the extended interval prior to the start of Craig's keel video that I posted he was flying in traffic and not paying attention to where he was going but looking backwards at the camera and using sign language to describe his flight. Draw your own conclusions.

It has been a long time since there have been any substantial discussions on the rules of etiquette for either ridge soaring of thermalling. It probably wouldn't hurt to rehash the subject and revive the diagrams in case anyone is interested. I wouldn't be too hard on Mark or Craig either I personally know enough higher rated pilots who have either caused mid-airs or are to be given large volumes of room when thermalling, etc.
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Hang gliding general :: RE: Chinese helmets

25 April, 2015 - 23:33
Author: Toomb
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:33 pm (GMT -8)

No. I am looking to buy a helmet, and am interested in the opinions of folks with real world experience..........thanks . Chris

Incident Reports :: RE: Icaro MastR: Spiral dive w/o recovery - batten clips opened

25 April, 2015 - 23:29
Author: boarini2003
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:29 pm (GMT -8)

Man that was scary to watch. Even though the bank angle was high, I was still surprised how easily they popped out. Yikes. Hope the pilot is okay.
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Hang gliding Videos :: RE: MoonGlow

25 April, 2015 - 23:27
Author: skydog
Subject: Re: Moon-Bow's are cool!
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:27 pm (GMT -8)

I would like to see the Moon Bow.
Bob

Roadrunner wrote: Have any of you Guys ever seen what I call a "Moon-Bow"?. For I have seen a rain-Bow at night Where the Full moon lite up the night sky, with a very cool looking what during the Day-time we would call a Rain-Bow.


See Ya The BIG Guy
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Hang gliding Videos :: Winch hanggliding video on new wing

25 April, 2015 - 23:24
Author: uvflyer
Subject: Winch hanggliding video on new wing
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:24 pm (GMT -8)

Did my third course last previous weekend with my own wing. Great weekend it was and the glider flies great! Good to go to the french alps in a couple of months

Too bad, youtube loses a lot of quality, but set it to 1080P and enjoy.


Link

Hang gliding general :: RE: Chinese helmets

25 April, 2015 - 23:16
Author: darkcloud
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:16 pm (GMT -8)

Toomb wrote: Just purchased an Ozone helmet. Damn nice!


Tells us about this helmet. What do you like about it?

Toomb, can't tell you much other than the fit and comfort level is better than any helmet that I've worn to date. I'll know more after using it a few times. Is there anything that you know about it that I might need to be made aware of?

Incident Reports :: RE: Icaro MastR: Spiral dive w/o recovery - batten clips opened

25 April, 2015 - 23:05
Author: Windlord
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:05 pm (GMT -8)

sbrian2 wrote: Hmmmm... batten clips (levers?) have always struck me as a little "iffy," a move from something rock-solid (nylon ties, as long as you regularly check them for wear) to something that looks like it could pop out...
.
Rib cords are the way to go and they don't produce that much drag.
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