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Hang gliding general :: RE: Tragedy at 2016 Quest Air Open

27 May, 2016 - 20:56
Author: davisstraub
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 12:56 pm (GMT -8)

Actually in aerotow competition we have standardized on a thin spectra protow bridle with a barrel release and a weaklink at the other end.

Having been at this for thirty years I've been in a position to influence that standardization.
_________________
Davis Straub at the Oz Report

Hang gliding general :: RE: Tragedy at 2016 Quest Air Open

27 May, 2016 - 20:30
Author: Jeff Page
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 12:30 pm (GMT -8)

One glaring difference I see between the airline world (gazillions of hours flown between accidents) and hang gliding is standardization.


J Page
H2
B767

The camp fire :: RE: Sky Sports (1970s east coast HG manufacturer)

27 May, 2016 - 20:27
Author: HGXC
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 12:27 pm (GMT -8)

Owned a Bobcat, Kestrel and a Sirocco! They were cool and certainly better then my Manflight

Dennis
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Organ Donation Saves Lives

Glider = Ventus B. ATOS B-V, Rating = H5, Private Pilot /Glider

Hang gliding general :: RE: Tragedy at 2016 Quest Air Open

27 May, 2016 - 19:35
Author: Rcaux
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 11:35 am (GMT -8)

Thanks Jonathan,

Actually I was more asking opinions about the trigger principle, this washer or monkey fist actuated by sliding the hand on the bar. But that is only for a V-bridle.

With a simple harness connection, the trigger could be similar to the mouth release, but actuated by opening the thumb for example.

Regards, Raymond

Hang gliding general :: RE: Tragedy at 2016 Quest Air Open

27 May, 2016 - 18:14
Author: NMERider
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 10:14 am (GMT -8)

Rcaux wrote: What about this one: getoffrelease.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Get-Off-Instructions[dot]pdf ? Not hand-free, but you can keep the hands on the bar... Sorry, still junior here for the links.
http://getoffrelease.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Get-Off-Instructions.pdf

Thanks Raymond,
One more post and you can post links.
The Get-Off release looks like it could be converted to a mouth release by reversing the type of spring.
Cheers,
Jonathan
_________________
There is nothing I do that others cannot equal or exceed: http://www.youtube.com/user/GlideLA/videos

Hang gliding general :: RE: A release for aerotow

27 May, 2016 - 18:02
Author: Qi
Subject: release
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 10:02 am (GMT -8)

I use the LMFP loop release for the very reason that I do not have to take my hand off the bar. I know it has its own issues, but it makes me feel more prepared at all times and I have never had a problem.
_________________
H2 Falcon 4 195

Hang gliding general :: RE: A release for aerotow

27 May, 2016 - 16:57
Author: JohnC
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 8:57 am (GMT -8)

wonderwind_flyer wrote: ...
... I would like to use my voice to activate a trigger instead of holding something with jaw muscles...


Ah indeed. And these days creating a voice activated electromechanical function is quite simple. But it is not at all simple to do as a Safety Function. With each layer of functionality comes complexity, which brings failure modes, which need mitigation, which itself adds complexity... Hence me ending up with the KISS approach of "just cut the bl***y string".

An additional complicating factor is that we don't really have fail safe state. I.e., in some phases of flight, failure to remain attached is also hazardous. Not quite as bad as failure to release perhaps, but still significant.

And with any mechanism we choose use, there is the oft ignored "human in the loop". Like much in aviation, aerotow can at times require extreme concentration (for me at least). When workload is already high, it can take an apparently small addition - like an unfamiliar action of mouth of voice - to create a work overload situation. When this happens, decision making can stall and from a remote perspective, people can appear to act, or fail to act, in an utterly irrational way.

(Voice control is on my list - but only for my navigation device. And I'm not going to get round to that before winter!)
_________________
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WW Sport 2 155
Tenax 3

Hang gliding general :: RE: Who says aerotow is hard?

27 May, 2016 - 16:47
Author: slimchance
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 8:47 am (GMT -8)

Ttsjeff wrote: f*** off. This is in bad timing

This obviously is NOT about the accident at Quest. You are projecting your feelings.

Take it easy.

Tim
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If you want to pick a government to trust....why not this one!

Hang gliding general :: RE: Who says aerotow is hard?

27 May, 2016 - 16:14
Author: davisstraub
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 8:14 am (GMT -8)

Personally I like it.

Quite a few years ago I had a number of barrel rolls while on tow. I just wasn't doing it on purpose.
_________________
Davis Straub at the Oz Report

Hang gliding general :: RE: Tragedy at 2016 Quest Air Open

27 May, 2016 - 15:53
Author: 4X8
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 7:53 am (GMT -8)

I recently got checked out arrow towing and while looking into a release mechanism there was only one that seemed safe to me and that was the look-out mountain "tether pull". (not sure what the official name is.) The hand brake lever system seemed arcane and dangerous... Just my opinion.

HangGliding.Org Events :: RE: **2016** Coyote Howl May 21&22 KM fly in

27 May, 2016 - 15:40
Author: Willmrx
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 7:40 am (GMT -8)

Midget?

The camp fire :: RE: Things that make you laugh your ass off

27 May, 2016 - 15:06
Author: BBJCaptain
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 7:06 am (GMT -8)


_________________
First Flight 1979 H4 , Cirrus 3, UP Mosquito, Delta Wing Streak, Moyes XS, Exxtacy 160, Rotor Vulto, MILLENNIUM #8
ATP,MEL,HELI, BBJ, 747SP, G-IV
http://www.youtube.com/user/BBJCaptain/videos

Life's goal is not to arrive safely at the grave in a well preserved body.
But rather to slide in sideways, totally worn out and broken, shouting
"Holy Crap, WHAT A RIDE !!"

Open carry IS our second amendment in action. Concealed carry is a regulated privilege.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/forum.php

The camp fire :: RE: Things that make you laugh your ass off

27 May, 2016 - 15:01
Author: BBJCaptain
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 7:01 am (GMT -8)


_________________
First Flight 1979 H4 , Cirrus 3, UP Mosquito, Delta Wing Streak, Moyes XS, Exxtacy 160, Rotor Vulto, MILLENNIUM #8
ATP,MEL,HELI, BBJ, 747SP, G-IV
http://www.youtube.com/user/BBJCaptain/videos

Life's goal is not to arrive safely at the grave in a well preserved body.
But rather to slide in sideways, totally worn out and broken, shouting
"Holy Crap, WHAT A RIDE !!"

Open carry IS our second amendment in action. Concealed carry is a regulated privilege.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/forum.php

Hang gliding general :: RE: Who says aerotow is hard?

27 May, 2016 - 14:51
Author: Ttsjeff
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 6:51 am (GMT -8)

f*** off. This is in bad timing

Hang gliding general :: RE: Who says aerotow is hard?

27 May, 2016 - 14:50
Author: Ttsjeff
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 6:50 am (GMT -8)

f*** off. This is in bad timing

Hang gliding general :: RE: A release for aerotow

27 May, 2016 - 14:30
Author: wonderwind_flyer
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 6:30 am (GMT -8)

...

JohnC,
Thank you for sharing your reliable design. Hands free activation of your concept, if possible, could be the next step.

I am still trying to understand the issues and reliability factors of mouth release systems. In dream land ... I would like to use my voice to activate a trigger instead of holding something with jaw muscles.

Something like the Vocca Light:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_-WDVWF5AA

Hang gliding general :: Who says aerotow is hard?

27 May, 2016 - 14:13
Author: CHassan
Subject: Who says aerotow is hard?
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 6:13 am (GMT -8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY-6hVRmC1U
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WW U2
H3
AT, FL,ST, RLF, TUR.

There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. … Clearly, it is this second part, the missing, which presents the difficulties. ~~~Douglas Adams

Hang gliding general :: RE: A release for aerotow

27 May, 2016 - 13:03
Author: davisstraub
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 5:03 am (GMT -8)

Yes, there are indeed issues with the mouth releases also, which is one of the reasons that they are not widely used, except in Russia.
_________________
Davis Straub at the Oz Report

Hang gliding general :: RE: A release for aerotow

27 May, 2016 - 12:48
Author: JohnC
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 4:48 am (GMT -8)

davisstraub wrote:

...Just to be clear, this does not address the issues raised by the accident here at the Quest Air Open (releasing quickly and keeping one's hands on the base tube).

For sure. Releasing when and only when commanded, quickly, without moving a hand off the base bar would be ideal.

I haven't found or been able to create a solution for those needs that didn't create other problems like complexity, reliability, method of operation, comfort etc. But it's a close call.

For many or even most, a mouth release may be a very good solution indeed.
_________________
WW U2 145
WW Sport 2 155
Tenax 3

Hang gliding general :: RE: A release for aerotow

27 May, 2016 - 12:30
Author: davisstraub
Posted: Fri May 27, 2016 4:30 am (GMT -8)

Thanks.

Great work.

Just to be clear, this does not address the issues raised by the accident here at the Quest Air Open (releasing quickly and keeping one's hands on the base tube).
_________________
Davis Straub at the Oz Report